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 From Javier, the xian concept of "morality"
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2539 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2009 :  07:15:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you think that Javier and friends are fucked up, which they are, they're not the only ones:


From William Lane Craig

Irony alert: Look at the left sidebar where he advertises a book called Is Goodness without God Good Enough?: A Debate on Faith, Secularism, and Ethics which Craig is one of the contributers for.

So yeah, they say that they have the best, or most consistent source of "morality" just because they have some sky-daddy telling them what to do and not to do. "Murder", rape, etc are wrong only because god tells them it is.

Isn't that like a child claiming to be more moral than an adult he meets just because the child has his parents telling him what to do and not to do while the adult does not?

Also, look at the kind of things that one can justify using "biblical morality". On to Craig's quote:
So whom does God wrong in commanding the destruction of the Canaanites? Not the Canaanite adults, for they were corrupt and deserving of judgement. Not the children, for they inherit eternal life. So who is wronged? Ironically, I think the most difficult part of this whole debate is the apparent wrong done to the Israeli soldiers themselves. Can you imagine what it would be like to have to break into some house and kill a terrified woman and her children? The brutalizing effect on these Israeli soldiers is disturbing.

So who would be wronged by, say, abortion then? Don't the fetuses get "eternal life" too, just like the Canaanite kids were supposed to? Yet that doesn't stop the fundies from protesting against abortion now, does it? The sole difference: One action is ordered by "god" so it's alright. The other isn't. Yet those people call themselves "pro-life". Bullshit. If you're a theist like that, you are not pro-life. You may be "conditional" pro-life, but that just depends on whether you think that "god" wants a baby to live or not.

Craig seems to admit as much:
So the problem isn't that God ended the Canaanites' lives. The problem is that He commanded the Israeli soldiers to end them. Isn't that like commanding someone to commit murder? No, it's not. Rather, since our moral duties are determined by God's commands, it is commanding someone to do something which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been murder. The act was morally obligatory for the Israeli soldiers in virtue of God's command, even though, had they undertaken it on their on initiative, it would have been wrong.





>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 01/08/2009 11:47:27
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15821 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2009 :  08:53:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by the_ignored

If you think that Javier and friends are fucked up, which they are, they're not the only ones:
Didn't John Lennon write a song about that?

This is truly repulsive ideology. Hitler and Goebbels would be proud of crafting similar excuses for genocide.

Also, I've never seen anything even in the Bible that remotely claimed that the slaughtered Canaanite children were being rewarded with eternal life. Indeed, such a promise would go completely against the spirit of total genocide commanded by Yahweh in those times when the Hebrews were (supposedly) slaughtering off the (supposedly) indigenous peoples of the "holy land." In justifying the unjustifiable, Craig is making scriptural shit up, whole cloth.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. That's what fundies, despite their insistence upon "biblical literalism," do.




Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/07/2009 09:06:48
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
24952 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2009 :  09:19:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Indeed, such a promise would go completely against the spirit of total genocide commanded by Yahweh in those times when the Hebrews were (supposedly) slaughtering off the (supposedly) indigenous peoples of the "holy land."
Such a promise would also defy the idea that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. Everyone who died prior to Christ must be in Hell, right?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2539 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2009 :  06:26:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow. This guy just can't seem to stop talking about me.

Should I start getting creeped out? Maybe I should just stop responding to him.

I suspect that may not stop him though.









>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 01/08/2009 07:54:46
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15821 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2009 :  08:51:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hope he doesn't have your home address, ig.

Apropos of nothing, here's a new avatar for you, in case you care to adopt it:



I didn't create the above. It's just a down-sized version of this engraving by G.A. Harker, to which, below, I've appended the relevant Cervantes quote:


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2539 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2009 :  11:27:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suspect what he'll do is he'll point and laugh at what I said above, not realizing that we're not really serious.


What I'd like for him to do is to explain why he's so upset about me running to my "support" group while he has no problem with his friend Trish, remember her?, running to him for help in dealing with me.

Then again, consistency is not something that one associates with theists and other believers in woo.


>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 01/08/2009 11:35:36
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2539 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2009 :  10:46:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, that poor windmill...well, brainless Javier has now banned me from posting on his little blog. Did he even try to refute me? Nope. He just repeated some old piece of shit that he said earlier and seems to be acting like I've not responded to that stuff.

Why'd he ban me? He can't take the fact that I'm calling him out on his "anti-human" philosophy. Never mind that he's not been able to refute anything I've put in as evidence for that. Now, he's ensuring that he gets the last word, all while still calling names.


Oh well, fuck him. Since I can't post there, I'll take my last shot at that brainless fool here. I've saved my last responses to him from his site, so he can go ahead and delete everything if he wants...it'll still be saved.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15821 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2009 :  12:06:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, my "windmills" idea may have been misplaced. Don Quixote thought the windmills were giants. You never mistook them for anything but trollish little Creos.

Nice job, but Creos are essentially close-minded totalitarians. Since they have no game, they have to control the playing field. They tilt it, move the bases, and even expel members of the opposing team at need, to produce an illusion of a victory. They appeal to our desire for a fair game, then rig it even more crudely than the Black Sox in 1919.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2539 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2009 :  08:56:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Man, I think I've underestimated this guy...He'll censor my comments once he finds them, but he'll still feel free to insult me when I can't respond to him.

The prick. We're not banning him from here if he wants to come mix it up. Wonder why he doesn't come?

I suspect this is some young punk just recently out of his teens.

You know, I think I'd love to meet this guy in person...I'd like to see if he's as much of an asshole in life as he is on the net.


To those wondering, this is the comment that he took off.

Wow, you are a stalker, aren't you?

Get a life.

Got a problem with your site becoming more well-known on the internet? If so, don't post.

Go ahead and delete this, I know you'll see it at least.



Why he assumes I didn't know he had a site meter I don't know; he still bothers to go and make posts about and then links to the sites that I link to his site about, that's the point of the beginning of my last post to him.

I guess he doesn't want extra internet traffic after all. Meh.



On to something else. Too bad that the link they gave is broken though. It'd be an excellent example of the kind of "moral" thinking that Javier and William Lane Craig use, eh?




>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 01/20/2009 10:53:45
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2009 :  10:52:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
He most probably is just as much of an asshole in real life.
It just is that he probably is an hypocritical asshole only truly revealed in the safety of anonymity that is the wonder of internet.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2539 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2009 :  10:55:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hah! I was just thinking of that very same "Penny Arcade" cartoon when I read your post.

On a side note, it seems they have their second RPG game out now.


>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 01/20/2009 11:00:12
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2539 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2009 :  15:20:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, now he's issued a challenge to two other guys here in his newest post

Show how he's immoral from an atheist perspective.


Simon is welcome to respond to what I said a while back, he never did.

The cheerleader Half-mooner may also respond if he'd like.


I will repeat my position: Moral imperatives cannot exist apart from God's express command. The atheists (and their cheerleaders) have objected that I am 'immoral' but have failed to demonstrate what ethical basis they have for doing so. They may, without foul mouths, display how one can argue that I am immoral from an atheistic perspective.

"without foul mouths"? What an idiot. I just called him an ass, hot an a$$hole on his blog.

Well, you made an "ass" of youself by doing so.

Last warning. Stop cussing.

I explained to that fucktard that "ass" is an animal.

I should challenge him to show that what I called him on his blog is "cussing".


To Simon and Halfmooner, who he's responding to here: This is the same guy who said in a previous post:

If the applications are so different, then what right does he have to judge us, other than "might makes right"?

With God, might makes right is right. So what?

Yeah, so "depraved" that the idea of billions of people dying for the sake of the "glory" of some "sky-daddy" sickens me. Yeah, I'm "depraved" alright...

Correct.

What you've described is an amoral being, not a moral one. If you assert, with no proof, that "god" has the "right" to impose his rules on us without himself having to obey any rules himself then he's not moral, he just does whatever he wants.

Yes, God doing whatever he wants is moral.


So, human empathy, the "golden rule", the fact that there'd be consequences for such "honour" killing, etc, none of that would have any effect on that guy? Read his posts. He doesn't give a shit about any of that.

So, he's discarding every single reason for morality except for his god, then he's challenging us to show how he's "immoral".




EDIT: Put in the link to his "previous post".

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 01/21/2009 17:21:55
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2009 :  17:15:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, lemme me think:


Hello.
The reason I stopped answering your posts is the uselessness of it.
I find your position wrong and potentially dangerous, as it can justify any crime and, indeed, does just that in several of your posts. It is also baseless and unjustified by any logical reasoning. You are not argumenting, that is, giving arguments to justify your position,just restating it in a slightly different way.

In all frankness, I knew even before my first answer, that you were not interested in any other view points. I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt but our short 'dialogue' only confirmed that my first impression was the right one.
You consider having the truth and 'debate' other viewpoints not on their own values but on how they relate to your own view, the 'truth', by your definition.

This 'dialogue' is, therefore, a useless and frustrating exercise that is not going to teach either of us anything, let alone shine a new perspective on our respective opinions.
I am not only talking about morality and religion here, even your interpretation of the Bible is quite crude and uninteresting, in my opinion.

So, considering the time such posts take, it is very wasteful and unsatisfying to spend it in this fashion; talking to the equivalent of a self-righteous piece of architecture and my time is better and more pleasantly spend elsewhere (this for example is a particularly pernicious source of addiction. And they have pieces of art now).

Obviously, I am really not typing for your own sake but rather out of respect for Reynold. It will only be this one post because even if rather like and respect Reynold, it is not to the point of masochism.
I know that, you will type yourself on the back and convince yourself that you won and shut me up. Good for you.



That said, here is the Webster definition of moral:

Main Entry: mo·ral·i·ty
Pronunciation: \m#601;-#712;ra-l#601;-t#275;, mo#775;-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural mo·ral·i·ties
Date: 14th century

1 a: a moral discourse, statement, or lesson b: a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson
2 a: a doctrine or system of moral conduct bplural : particular moral principles or rules of conduct
3: conformity to ideals of right human conduct
4: moral conduct : virtue


You will notice that no mention is made of divinity.
Morality is said to be a code of conduct defining right or wrong.

Of course, there is no reason not to apply this code of conduct to God as well as to man.


This code of conduct, this definition of right or wrong, can be considered universal and standing on his own right or it can be considered an extension of the greater good (utilitarianism) or the extension of social tendencies built within us by our evolution as a social specie.

Alternatively, one can consider that public morality is an artificial construct, a social construct. In this case, it would not be universal, of course, but will be no less real. Morality can also be considered personal, a set of rule through which a person decides to leave his life, once again, this is not universal but can still be very real.

Indeed, many philosopher and thinkers have build their own definition of morality, often without any reference to the Godly. Such, for example, was the case of Hume, Rousseau, Spinoza, Kant or Sartre.


As to why you are immoral, it will depends on which of the various secular moral system you go with: You advocate the murdering of thousand of innocents with no justification other than blind obedience of the diktat of your divinity (which might only be due to a defficiency in your brain's dopamine signal transduction).
- If murder has an intrinsic moral value (if there is such thing as an intrinsic moral value) it is, according to the prevailing consensus, a negative one.
- Even if it you refuse the idea of intrinsic moral values, murder is still considered evil by the society we leave in.
- This would also constitutes a terrible societal ill with little positive consequences, hence would be judged immoral from an utilitarian point of view.
- Finally, it goes against your empathy instincts -at least that of a normally functional human being- and, as such, should offend both your intrinsic moral (according to Rousseau) or the evolutionary derived moral.

So, yes, it is quite easy to describe the behaviour you advocate as being immoral.
You, on the other hand, are merely amoral as the idea you profess to live by is not a moral stand, but merely grovelling obedience and fear of punishment...


That said, enjoy the comfort of your certitudes. If you can't be a better person, I guess, you might indeed as well be a comfortable one.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2539 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2009 :  18:57:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're a lot more eloqent than me...For example, read it while it lasts!

I've never actually read any of Dawkin's books. I only go over to his form sometimes. And no, I've not read any of his postings there either.

We talk about science, athiesm, and yes, about Dawkins books. But, we don't just sit around talking about him and kissing his ass.


Speaking of which, you might want to do some reading about atheists yourself instead of just pulling stuff out of your ass and putting it on the web.



Ah screw it; I removed it myself; he can read it over here if he wants.


>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 01/21/2009 19:01:02
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15821 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2009 :  19:20:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For myself, I won't bother posting on his site, because he most likely will ban me and prevent any attempt at a rational reply at any time. I really hate being cut off in the middle of a discussion.

I'll just say this: I don't much care whether Javier's god is a moral figure, because he's mythical. Sure, he'd be the worst kind of patriarchal, genocidal, infant-slaughtering monster if he were real, but there remains absolutely zero evidence of his existence. That being the case, I care no more about Javier's god's evil ways than I do that of any comic book super villain.

The subtext of Javier's argument is the justification of humans doing what his god is supposed to favor, not what that non-existent god "commands."

If anyone -- whether or not they feel they are justified by ancient scripture -- tries to pull of any of that Old Testament slaughter and torture, I will do everything in my power to see that person is prosecuted for his crimes. If a time ever comes when such atrocities are accepted as legal, I'll personally do whatever I can to kill the worst human perpetrators, because that would be a time of civil war.

So I don't care how crazy-vicious Javier thinks god is, since there is no such god. But Javier better watch his step and abide by modern law.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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