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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 01/23/2009 : 18:36:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Ok, lemme me think:
Hello.
The reason I stopped answering your posts is the uselessness of it.
I find your position wrong and potentially dangerous, as it can justify any crime and, indeed, does just that in several of your posts. It is also baseless and unjustified by any logical reasoning. You are not argumenting, that is, giving arguments to justify your position,just restating it in a slightly different way.
In all frankness, I knew even before my first answer, that you were not interested in any other view points. I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt but our short 'dialogue' only confirmed that my first impression was the right one.
You consider having the truth and 'debate' other viewpoints not on their own values but on how they relate to your own view, the 'truth', by your definition.
This 'dialogue' is, therefore, a useless and frustrating exercise that is not going to teach either of us anything, let alone shine a new perspective on our respective opinions.
I am not only talking about morality and religion here, even your interpretation of the Bible is quite crude and uninteresting, in my opinion.
So, considering the time such posts take, it is very wasteful and unsatisfying to spend it in this fashion; talking to the equivalent of a self-righteous piece of architecture and my time is better and more pleasantly spend elsewhere (this for example is a particularly pernicious source of addiction. And they have pieces of art now).
Obviously, I am really not typing for your own sake but rather out of respect for Reynold. It will only be this one post because even if rather like and respect Reynold, it is not to the point of masochism.
I know that, you will type yourself on the back and convince yourself that you won and shut me up. Good for you.
That said, here is the Webster definition of moral:
Main Entry: mo·ral·i·ty
Pronunciation: \m#601;-#712;ra-l#601;-t#275;, mo#775;-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural mo·ral·i·ties
Date: 14th century
1 a: a moral discourse, statement, or lesson b: a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson
2 a: a doctrine or system of moral conduct bplural : particular moral principles or rules of conduct
3: conformity to ideals of right human conduct
4: moral conduct : virtue
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You will notice that no mention is made of divinity.
Morality is said to be a code of conduct defining right or wrong.
Of course, there is no reason not to apply this code of conduct to God as well as to man.
This code of conduct, this definition of right or wrong, can be considered universal and standing on his own right or it can be considered an extension of the greater good (utilitarianism) or the extension of social tendencies built within us by our evolution as a social specie.
Alternatively, one can consider that public morality is an artificial construct, a social construct. In this case, it would not be universal, of course, but will be no less real. Morality can also be considered personal, a set of rule through which a person decides to leave his life, once again, this is not universal but can still be very real.
Indeed, many philosopher and thinkers have build their own definition of morality, often without any reference to the Godly. Such, for example, was the case of Hume, Rousseau, Spinoza, Kant or Sartre.
As to why you are immoral, it will depends on which of the various secular moral system you go with: You advocate the murdering of thousand of innocents with no justification other than blind obedience of the diktat of your divinity (which might only be due to a defficiency in your brain's dopamine signal transduction).
- If murder has an intrinsic moral value (if there is such thing as an intrinsic moral value) it is, according to the prevailing consensus, a negative one.
- Even if it you refuse the idea of intrinsic moral values, murder is still considered evil by the society we leave in.
- This would also constitutes a terrible societal ill with little positive consequences, hence would be judged immoral from an utilitarian point of view.
- Finally, it goes against your empathy instincts -at least that of a normally functional human being- and, as such, should offend both your intrinsic moral (according to Rousseau) or the evolutionary derived moral.
So, yes, it is quite easy to describe the behaviour you advocate as being immoral.
You, on the other hand, are merely amoral as the idea you profess to live by is not a moral stand, but merely grovelling obedience and fear of punishment...
That said, enjoy the comfort of your certitudes. If you can't be a better person, I guess, you might indeed as well be a comfortable one. |
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Well, he's responded, this time without any actual name-calling it looks like. Though he dodges some of your points by saying that "revelation" was "complete" with the bible and Jesus appearence on earth. That's a new one to me.
He also says:
| I never said the morality was defined by divinity. What I did say and imply in my response to yourself and Reynold was that morality itself cannot stand alone, but relies on God's express command. This is your conscience the 'law of God' written on your mind. This is why you react to disasters, murder, and rape the way you do. Its not because of some social contract, but a divine image, the imago dei. |
How would he go about proving that as opposed to just asserting that?
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 10:06:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
For myself, I won't bother posting on his site, because he most likely will ban me and prevent any attempt at a rational reply at any time. I really hate being cut off in the middle of a discussion.
I'll just say this: I don't much care whether Javier's god is a moral figure, because he's mythical. Sure, he'd be the worst kind of patriarchal, genocidal, infant-slaughtering monster if he were real, but there remains absolutely zero evidence of his existence. That being the case, I care no more about Javier's god's evil ways than I do that of any comic book super villain.
The subtext of Javier's argument is the justification of humans doing what his god is supposed to favor, not what that non-existent god "commands."
If anyone -- whether or not they feel they are justified by ancient scripture -- tries to pull of any of that Old Testament slaughter and torture, I will do everything in my power to see that person is prosecuted for his crimes. If a time ever comes when such atrocities are accepted as legal, I'll personally do whatever I can to kill the worst human perpetrators, because that would be a time of civil war.
So I don't care how crazy-vicious Javier thinks god is, since there is no such god. But Javier better watch his step and abide by modern law.
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You may as well have, Doc...he's replied to you anyway. I like how he calls your system of ethics into question while saying that whatever his god does is "good", by his divine decree. Or as he said: With god, might makes right is right.
Why doesn't he come here?
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 11:13:41 [Permalink]
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Isn't he completely contradicting himself on the 'divine as source as moral'?
Plus, I want to clarify that I did explain how empathy and feelings of justice could be explained in a purely naturalistic fashion... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2009 : 16:28:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Originally posted by HalfMooner
For myself, I won't bother posting on his site, because he most likely will ban me and prevent any attempt at a rational reply at any time. I really hate being cut off in the middle of a discussion.
I'll just say this: I don't much care whether Javier's god is a moral figure, because he's mythical. Sure, he'd be the worst kind of patriarchal, genocidal, infant-slaughtering monster if he were real, but there remains absolutely zero evidence of his existence. That being the case, I care no more about Javier's god's evil ways than I do that of any comic book super villain.
The subtext of Javier's argument is the justification of humans doing what his god is supposed to favor, not what that non-existent god "commands."
If anyone -- whether or not they feel they are justified by ancient scripture -- tries to pull of any of that Old Testament slaughter and torture, I will do everything in my power to see that person is prosecuted for his crimes. If a time ever comes when such atrocities are accepted as legal, I'll personally do whatever I can to kill the worst human perpetrators, because that would be a time of civil war.
So I don't care how crazy-vicious Javier thinks god is, since there is no such god. But Javier better watch his step and abide by modern law.
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You may as well have, Doc...he's replied to you anyway. I like how he calls your system of ethics into question while saying that whatever his god does is "good", by his divine decree. Or as he said: With god, might makes right is right.
Why doesn't he come here?
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And it was again one of his evasive slimy "arguments," filled with every kind of rhetorical fallacy. He constructs a straw-man to represent me, painting me as though I've permanently and unalterably concluded that there is no god. He apparently doesn't understand that almost all atheists, no matter how strong their anti-god stand, maintain an underlying philosophical agnosticism.
He clearly doesn't understand, or refuses to acknowledge, that my strong disbelief in a deity is simply the default position that everyone should take, subject to change due to evidence. I've never seen the least bit of such evidence in more than 63 years of life.
I am, based upon actual evidence, an "atheist" about my ability to walk upon water, I would abandon that disbelief the first time I was able to skip across the surface of a lake. In the meantime, I take what could be considered a "strong atheist" attitude to water-walking, while remaining philosophically "agnostic" about the possibility that evidence could potentially change my mind.
The worst of all is how Javier has dodged the matter of whether he, or others, should commit acts of murder, genocide, or infanticide, if they think their god so commands. He'd rather just use his efforts to attack me and other atheists. Like that really hurts.
By dodging the issue of what he'd do if he heard compelling voices in his head, Javier has shown that he's a potentially dangerous person.
My guess is that the reason Javier doesn't come here is because he's a coward at heart. He refuses to engage in a more open forum, where ha can't arbitrarily ban people whose arguments he can't counter. Javier is a closet agnostic. If he believed his god were truly speaking through him, would he be so craven?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/28/2009 18:31:29 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2009 : 14:44:07 [Permalink]
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For those who care, he's moving his blog and is deleting his old one...the links will be out of date, but you'll still be able to find his posts on the new spot at: aversebaptist.wordpress.com/
The place where I quoted him then would be found here.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 01/29/2009 23:07:56 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2009 : 20:11:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
For those who care, he's moving his blog and is deleting his old one...the links will be out of date, but you'll still be able to find his posts on the new spot at: aversebaptist.wordpress.com/
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Thanks for the heads up! I wouldn't have known, ummmmm, wait a minute. I forgot that I never cared...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2009 : 06:33:30 [Permalink]
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Everyone needs a hobby, I guess.
I admire your energy, IG. I really do. But then, your background and experiences with religious nut-cases and otherwise religiously indoctrinated people gives you a source of motivation I never had.
I spent little over a year reading and some writing at Rapture Ready, and I finally ran out of energy. Those people are insane, and I started to fear for my own sanity if I should have stayed. They don't really want to know anything else than their own crazy doctrines.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2009 : 09:20:53 [Permalink]
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We had this 'debate' Monday between the atheists association and the Christian Faculty forums.
Well, it was supposed to be a 'friendly dialogue', we even dropped the term debate as too aggressive.
In reality, it was a set-up for the Christians to insult us for two hours.
If only they had made sense at any single time, but no...
I only asked one question, got insulted because of my accent (the other 'debater' even had to translate for the shit head) and got no answer. So, I dropped it... Now I regret, it was so full of shit.
But, yes, these guys are not interested in hearing other view points. Just in public wanking about how they are the better people and conflicting evidences be damned.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2009 : 09:16:54 [Permalink]
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For the hell of it, javier and I are mixing it up again, on Trish's blog.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2009 : 09:33:17 [Permalink]
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Well, have fun.
But, if you are into punishment, whip and chains may prove quicker, and less less marks... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2009 : 09:42:48 [Permalink]
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Really hitting the bottom of the barrel, aren't you, Ig? I mean, Trish has an idiotic anti-atheist Ray Comfort "Quote of the Week."
And yes, since with her (and perhaps Javier), all events are the will of God, there can be no conceivable test for God. You're wasting your breath. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2009 : 14:21:09 [Permalink]
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Too late: She's made a post about me just as Javier did, only at least she's not being a prick about it like he is.
But yeah, she's a total robot. Holy shit...when I first heard the expression that to become religious one has to turn off ones' brain, I had no idea just how true that could be! My mind is blown here.
Shit! Those people VOTE! Holy ****! |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2009 : 11:44:12 [Permalink]
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So now this guy has "depression"...
Gee, can you guess why? Read around his blog. Damned hard to work up any sympathy for him. Especially when one remembers that he figues that "god's glory" is worth the deaths and suffering of billions of people
| Of course, I also don't suffer from typical Evangelical retardation. I don't believe God doesn't want me to suffer, or that God somehow needs to heal me of my afflication immediately and if he doesn't then he isn't God (as some of my mentally retarted enemies have said). Its as if people assume God to be a majestic grandfather that will not discipline or cause his children to suffer. That is patently stupid. I reject it because its nonsense. God isn't my therapist or my fuzzy bunny. Ultimately this 'sadness' boils to a lack of trust in the promises of the Lord. I don't trust him, so I get anxious this then turns to sadness. At least thats what I think. Sin is the affliction, and grace is the cure. |
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 03/16/2009 11:48:20 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2009 : 18:38:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
So now this guy has "depression"...
Gee, can you guess why? Read around his blog. Damned hard to work up any sympathy for him. Especially when one remembers that he figues that "god's glory" is worth the deaths and suffering of billions of people
| Of course, I also don't suffer from typical Evangelical retardation. I don't believe God doesn't want me to suffer, or that God somehow needs to heal me of my afflication immediately and if he doesn't then he isn't God (as some of my mentally retarted enemies have said). Its as if people assume God to be a majestic grandfather that will not discipline or cause his children to suffer. That is patently stupid. I reject it because its nonsense. God isn't my therapist or my fuzzy bunny. Ultimately this 'sadness' boils to a lack of trust in the promises of the Lord. I don't trust him, so I get anxious this then turns to sadness. At least thats what I think. Sin is the affliction, and grace is the cure. |
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The guy doesn't know why he's depressed, he just is. Yup, sometimes depression simply works that way, because of underlying brain chemical imbalances. I feel for him, but my sympathy is somewhat alloyed by his comments about his "mentally retarted [sic] enemies."
He's a guy who's (perhaps dangerously) depressed, thinks his invisible sky-god wants him that way for some higher purpose, and incidentally has a mental list of "enemies."
He's just graduated from my own mental list of people to point and laugh at, and gotten onto my list of people to slowly back away from.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/16/2009 18:39:51 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2009 : 16:23:57 [Permalink]
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Hah. Guess what? He's gotten over his depression long enough to act like a prick again.
Yeah, someone who "values" human life enough to say Yeah, so "depraved" that the idea of billions of people dying for the sake of the "glory" of some "sky-daddy" sickens me. Yeah, I'm "depraved" alright...
Correct. |
thinks that I'm the "scumbag".
EDIT:
I posted this on his board, but since he's "banned" me, I suspect it won't see the light of day over there..
I just post on a forum..you have a blog all to yourself. Your point? I keep up with a lot of blogs...some religiously inclined like yours, some not.
Your point? |
I asked twice, hopefully he'll answer.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 03/27/2009 16:36:46 |
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From Javier, the xian concept of "morality"
