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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 10:28:08 [Permalink]
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I thought he was saying he could have hid like a lot of people do instead of facing the hearing, instead he faced the uncertainty of a hearing.
I'll have to read more on this, are you saying he knew what the outcome of the hearing would be, or are you saying that it was a cake walk to have served for four years only to lose his G.I. Bill benefits or to have gone to prison? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/26/2009 11:16:27 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 04/26/2009 : 11:25:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
The war has not been declared illegal by any judicial or governmental body to which he reports.
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Yes, again, Japan did not declare waterboarding illegal, or attacking Hawaii illegal, so the people who tortured or attacked Hawaii and were punished, did not violate any laws. In fact, there was no Nuremberg or U.N. when they did those things, so they were surely within their rights.
Just because a corrupt system condones corruption, does not mean it is not corrupt. Excusing crimes by using euphemisms like "deploy" is less then helpful.
As Sgt Chiroux stated, he has a duty to defend the Constitution of the U.S.A. The war against the people of Iraq is clearly a violation of international law, and thus, the Constitution of the United States of America.
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Apples to watermelons, Gorgo.
It is a violation of international law by your opinion. That opinion has no validity when examining the soldier's actions.
He refused a lawful order to return to duty and be put in a foreign nation. The legitamacy of the occupation is irrelavent to those orders.
The Sgt. has a duty to defend the Constitution. His actions do not forward that. It is his opinion that the war is unConstitutional. How is refusing to go defending that document? The Constitution places the President of the United States as Commander in Chief of the military. The President and the command under him may direct any soldier to be recalled from the reserves and deployed.
"deployed" is not a euphamism. It is a word that correctly identifies what he was commanded to do. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 11:50:59 [Permalink]
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It is a violation of international law by your opinion. That opinion has no validity when examining the soldier's actions.
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No, what I've done is state the opinions of people who may be wrong, but who know something about what they're opining.
http://www.counterpunch.org/cohn07292008.html
"Deployed," in this case, is a euphemism for murder.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/26/2009 11:52:07 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 13:10:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
It is a violation of international law by your opinion. That opinion has no validity when examining the soldier's actions.
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No, what I've done is state the opinions of people who may be wrong, but who know something about what they're opining.
http://www.counterpunch.org/cohn07292008.html
"Deployed," in this case, is a euphemism for murder.
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Your appeal to pity and prejudical language fallacies are noted and discarded due to lack of support.
"Deployed" as used by the US military is to station personnel in a foreign country. This is no euphamism.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 13:25:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
"Deployed" as used by the US military is to station personnel in a foreign country. This is no euphamism.
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Regardless if that presense is a violation of International Law? Because that's what we're talking about. USA has no business in Iraq. Never had, after the first Desert Storm, which was a legal war sanctioned by the UN. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 13:40:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
"Deployed" as used by the US military is to station personnel in a foreign country. This is no euphamism.
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Regardless if that presense is a violation of International Law? Because that's what we're talking about. USA has no business in Iraq. Never had, after the first Desert Storm, which was a legal war sanctioned by the UN.
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Sanctioned by the U.N.S.C. due to Bush's bribing and threatening. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/26/2009 13:41:20 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 13:42:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I thought he was saying he could have hid like a lot of people do instead of facing the hearing, instead he faced the uncertainty of a hearing. |
If, as your previous quote read, the Military has no formal jurisdiction over the IRR, then he didn't have to hide or write the letters that he did. He only needed to not show up.| I'll have to read more on this, are you saying he knew what the outcome of the hearing would be, or are you saying that it was a cake walk to have served for four years only to lose his G.I. Bill benefits or to have gone to prison? |
I can't quite parse what you're asking, here.
I'm saying that he's playing this up as if he faced severe consequences (prison or the like) for not answering the IRR's call, when all he faced was discharge from the IRR (honorable or not).
It's like he's valiantly standing up to the library over an overdue book, pretending to some sort of huge fight with the government with jail time on the line, when both he and the library staff know that the worst that will happen is that his library card will be revoked. It's a joke, right? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 14:06:28 [Permalink]
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It's like he's valiantly standing up to the library over an overdue book, pretending to some sort of huge fight with the government with jail time on the line, when both he and the library staff know that the worst that will happen is that his library card will be revoked. It's a joke, right?
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I may have it wrong, but I think the article said they don't have any way, other than bullying, to bring someone in that doesn't want to be found. I think then it says they have jurisdiction once they report. He had no way of knowing for sure what would happen once the hearing started.
Is what he did the same as Lt. Watada, who was in the military? Probably not. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 15:02:22 [Permalink]
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I think it may be a mistake to talk about degrees of courage, either. I think it takes courage to go to Canada, it takes courage to hide, it takes courage not to go along to get along. It's not easy to refuse.
But, you're right, there is a lot I don't know about this IRR thing. Maybe it was easy and he's just trying to get attention. I hope it makes it easier for others to refuse. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/26/2009 15:03:04 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 15:10:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
| It's like he's valiantly standing up to the library over an overdue book, pretending to some sort of huge fight with the government with jail time on the line, when both he and the library staff know that the worst that will happen is that his library card will be revoked. It's a joke, right? |
I may have it wrong, but I think the article said they don't have any way, other than bullying, to bring someone in that doesn't want to be found. |
Reads to me like they don't have any way, other than empty bullying, to force someone to report who is sitting on his front porch, sipping a lemonade. There's no need for these people to hide or otherwise not "want to be found." They can simply and openly refuse duty.| I think then it says they have jurisdiction once they report. |
He never reported for duty. He got several deferals for school, and then decided he didn't want to go at all.| He had no way of knowing for sure what would happen once the hearing started. |
Showing up at the hearing wasn't reporting for duty. The hearing occured because he didn't show up for duty. With three JAG attorneys and a whole supporting cast, I think he knew very well that the worst punishment he faced was what he got, and the argument at the hearing was over whether his discharge would be honorable or general.| Is what he did the same as Lt. Watada, who was in the military? Probably not. |
I don't think it's anywhere close to Lt. Watada's circumstances. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 15:57:12 [Permalink]
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From a Democracy Now interview:SGT. MATTHIS CHIROUX: Well, right now it's turned into a bit of a waiting game, as far as the military goes. You know, I made my intentions clear, and then I followed through on them, and I'm waiting to hear from the military.
There's no real way I can know what consequences to face here. You know, many, many members of the Individual Ready Reserve, about 15,000 of them, have been called up since the beginning of this occupation of Iraq, and only 7,500 of them have reported. So there's about half there that's unaccounted for. And many of those individuals have been ignored by the military, as they should be. It is an illegal order to call up and deploy to Iraq. Others have been charged with desertion. So, during a time of war, actually, desertion can be punishable by death. So, you know, my spectrum of consequence is in the situation range literally anywhere from nothing to death. So I will wait faithfully in the United States, as I promised to do, to see how the military will react. |
That's a little different than what's written on the IVAW web site.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 16:37:47 [Permalink]
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Showing up at the hearing wasn't reporting for duty. The hearing occured because he didn't show up for duty.
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You're making this like it is a statement of fact. I'm not clear on where you get this? He wasn't hauled in, he went to the military. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 16:56:34 [Permalink]
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http://matthisresists.us/?m=200902
Here he's making the statement that he wants the hearing so as not to submit to the idea that his behavior is "misconduct." That's much different than a library fine, I think.
Amazing that people who support these crimes call what he did misconduct. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 17:16:32 [Permalink]
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I don't know anything about the veracity of this, but:
http://www.williambowles.info/gispecial/2008/0708/GISpecial6G4.pdf
The Army sees it differently, though. “The way he's going about it by not showing up puts him as a deserter and someone who is AWOL,” Army spokesperson Major Nathan Banks said.
“We won't go after him, but if he applies for a federal grant or school loans, certain jobs or gets a traffic ticket, he will be arrested and processed for being a deserter, and he will probably get a dishonorable discharge. He's digging his own hole.”
While they won't go after him, Chiroux knows the Army has noticed his actions.
“There were several stories in the Stars and Stripes which every soldier in Iraq and Afghanistan gets,” he said, with a touch of nervousness in his voice. He hasn't filed for conscientious-objector status because he said he doesn't qualify for that designation by the Army's standards.
“I'm not against all war, period,” he said. “In fact, I'm very pro-military. I see a great need to have a highly professional, well-trained and well-equipped defensive force that can also participate in international humanitarian operations, including peacekeeping operations.
“However, I'm highly opposed to illegal war, which is what I see the occupation of Iraq as.”
For now, it's a waiting game, one whose end Chiroux can't foresee. “I will continue to try and educate myself and stand for justice and the rule of law,” he said. “I have no fear of the military or what will happen here.
“If I'm jailed for my actions, they will never be able to strip from me the reality that I hold close to my heart that what I'm doing here is morally and legally right and in keeping with the values that were trained into me while in the military.” |
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 17:16:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
| Showing up at the hearing wasn't reporting for duty. The hearing occured because he didn't show up for duty. |
You're making this like it is a statement of fact. I'm not clear on where you get this? He wasn't hauled in, he went to the military. |
I didn't say he was hauled in. I said that the hearing occured because he didn't report. Given what Chiroux quotes John Adams as saying, the hearing would have happened whether Chiroux was there or not, which makes it seem like the hearing was only to discuss the level of his discharge due to his refusal to report for duty (in which case, what did he need to be there for?). If he'd been facing any criminal charges, they would have had to have actually charged him with something, and then he would have been compelled to appear to defend himself (and he would have known this before the hearing, because MPs would have arrested him).
The fact that the military was doing nothing about "many" of the half of the IRR members who'd been called up and failed to show (according to Chiroux, and I don't know how good of a source he is) speaks volumes to how few consequences there are for refusal of duty by IRR members. He claims that "some" have been charged as deserters, but I don't trust this guy to accurately report on any particular cases, even his own, much less the general sense of things.
Perhaps Chiroux really was worried that he'd face some sort of severe punishment, but it seems pretty easy to add 2 and 2 in this case. The fact that Chiroux characterized his general discharge as "a mistake" and not with joyous relief (at not being charged as a deserter on the spot) tells me that he was only playing at being ignorant of how severe his censure would be.
Read what he says:The prosecution, or literally ‘government,' opened by reading a list of when they sent me the call-up, when I contacted them in Feb. 2008 and asked for a delay to finish a semester of school I had just paid $4,500 for. They tracked when they issued me several delay orders until the final orders were issued for June 15th. They tracked when they sent me several failure to appear notices and when they finally initiated the discharge process against me.
After this, they showed the youtube video of my refusal to deploy after Winter Soldier on the Hill. They followed it by a portion of my speech from Fathers Day, the day I was supposed to report, and then a Democracy Now interview I did the day after. They sent him the call-up in the fall of 2007. Winter Soldier on the Hill was on May 15, 2008. He was just trying to delay his call-up until after school, for six months or more, no mention of being a "war resister" or anything like that. Then, Winter Soldier on the Hill and he finds a reason to refuse his orders, a much deeper reason than $4,500 in classes. It's all very fishy to me. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Refuses illegal war
