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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 20:39:57 [Permalink]
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I'm now way less impressed with the level of risk that Chiroux subjected himself to. I'd incorrectly thought he was on active duty, and had refused a troop movement. That's a classic, usually unwinnable, court martial offense. As a IRR, he was basically a civilian, negotiating for the terms of his final separation from service.
A General Discharge was, back in the day, considered a somewhat shameful mark on one's career. But that was when all men were subject to the draft, and employers cared about military service. Now, one's military history is irrelevant to most job applications. Essentially, I think Chiroux's case has been overblown. I think he was at no realistic risk. He's not even going to be seriously inconvenienced by a General Discharge. I don't spite Chiroux for what he's done, but he's no more an anti-war hero than I was.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 21:46:05 [Permalink]
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The Truthers have a statement from Chiroux I hadn't seen. Throws extra gas on his fire:Though this discharge is identical to the one I refused in exchange for having this hearing, I can now rest easy knowing I never submitted, I never backed down and the Army has heard my story. So he was offered a general discharge under honorable conditions, and said "no" in order to have a hearing where he could grandstand. (Silly me, I thought the hearing was the military's idea.) And after his (and his supporters') four-and-a-half hours of speechifying, nothing changed. I'm sure that his "opposition" there were under the impression that he was demanding a hearing to get an honorable discharge, and it seems clear to me that at that point, the Constitution and his war-resister's position were irrelevant (the military reasons why he was being discharged had nothing to do with war resistance).
But now he's calling himself "righteous" and asking other people of like mind (that the wars are illegal) to stand up and "RESIST" as well. He faced no consequences with this hearing, but he's asking others - possibly people who really do have GI Bill eligibility on the line (because they're still on active duty) - to stand up in protest like he did. What an asshole. He had nothing on the line, and is now shouting, "come on everybody, you can do it!"
I wonder what his Re-enlistment eligibility code is. It would be really ironic if he were still eligible for duty, if he so chose. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 03:08:27 [Permalink]
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| I'd sure like to know more about the whole situation. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 03:56:33 [Permalink]
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahP4Y-8_JgY
Whether grandstanding or not, he seems to be working with IVAW to improve the lives of veterans. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 04/27/2009 : 04:34:52 [Permalink]
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"Deployed" as used by the US military is to station personnel in a foreign country. This is no euphamism.
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And what do you have to add to the discussion besides your opinion? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 05:14:07 [Permalink]
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| I'm a little disappointed with a couple of the interviews I've seen. They're leaving the right wingers to ask the hard questions. Does nobody on the left asks the hard questions of people on the left? (same on the right and the middle) |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 05:41:32 [Permalink]
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but he's no more an anti-war hero than I was.
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Well, I think the idea of hero is crap most of the time, anyway, but it took courage for you to be different, and okay, maybe not so much for Chiroux, but I didn't have to do it. Sure, he's got new pals that like him, but he bought a load of crap when he could have just kept quiet.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 05:46:02 [Permalink]
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But now he's calling himself "righteous" and asking other people of like mind (that the wars are illegal) to stand up and "RESIST" as well. He faced no consequences with this hearing, but he's asking others - possibly people who really do have GI Bill eligibility on the line (because they're still on active duty) - to stand up in protest like he did. What an asshole. He had nothing on the line, and is now shouting, "come on everybody, you can do it!"
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Really? I didn't catch that part where he asked people to do this without understanding the risks. In fact, I thought you were faulting him for exaggerating the risks.
Again, I don't know enough about it to say I disagree with you, but I'm asking.
You also seem to be saying that he really doesn't believe what he's saying, that it's all made up just to grandstand. Is that what you're saying? Otherwise, I'm not sure why it's wrong to "grandstand" something you promote. I agree that lying, exaggeration and too much embellishment isn't a good idea, but you seem to be saying it's wrong for him to spend 4 1/2 hours to get a message across. Is 3 1/2 okay? 3? 2? Did he speak for the whole 4 1/2 hours? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 08:26:28 [Permalink]
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I've read this a few places in one form or another:
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1590339/20080702/id_0.jhtml
As he put his studies on hold to spend several months speaking to members of Congress in Washington about his plight, Chiroux's second deployment date came and went. Technically, he said, he's not AWOL because he feels he's essentially a civilian, and he's heard nothing from the Army since he failed to report.
The Army sees it differently, though. "The way he's going about it by not showing up puts him as a deserter and someone who is AWOL," Army spokesperson Major Nathan Banks said. "We won't go after him, but if he applies for a federal grant or school loans, certain jobs or gets a traffic ticket, he will be arrested and processed for being a deserter, and he will probably get a dishonorable discharge. He's digging his own hole." Banks said Chiroux's best bet is to file as a conscientious objector and explain his reasons for not wanting to serve. Quon added that if a soldier wishes to claim conscientious objector status, they must first report to their mobilization site and submit an application, which is then reviewed by a General Court Martial.
While they won't go after him, Chiroux knows the Army has noticed his actions. "There were several stories [about me] in the Stars and Stripes [newspaper], which every soldier in Iraq and Afghanistan gets," he said, with a touch of nervousness in his voice. He hasn't filed for conscientious-objector status because he said he doesn't qualify for that designation by the Army's standards.
"I'm not against all war, period," he said. "In fact, I'm very pro-military. I see a great need to have a highly professional, well-trained and well-equipped defensive force that can also participate in international humanitarian operations, including peacekeeping operations. However, I'm highly opposed to illegal war, which is what I see the occupation of Iraq as."
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From what I've seen, he's right, and from what I see so far, I have to appreciate what he's done.
(my bolding) |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/27/2009 08:39:00 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 10:11:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
In fact, I thought you were faulting him for exaggerating the risks. |
I am faulting him for exaggerating the risks to himself, for setting himself up as a Great American Hero, fighting valiantly against the Army's tyranny, when (according to a resource you provided), the Army posed no risk to him.| You also seem to be saying that he really doesn't believe what he's saying, that it's all made up just to grandstand. Is that what you're saying? Otherwise, I'm not sure why it's wrong to "grandstand" something you promote. I agree that lying, exaggeration and too much embellishment isn't a good idea, but you seem to be saying it's wrong for him to spend 4 1/2 hours to get a message across. Is 3 1/2 okay? 3? 2? Did he speak for the whole 4 1/2 hours? |
His intended audience wasn't the people at the hearing. The hearing was necessary only for Chiroux to be able to claim to others that he "stood up to" the Army. But once again, standing up for your beliefs implies that there's a downside, a risk that you take while doing so (otherwise, you're just talking). Chiroux faced no risks at the hearing, and he knew so, because it was a hearing that he requested. Sure, 9+ months ago, Banks was calling him a deserter and right-wing loons were calling for leg irons, but nothing ever came of any of that. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 10:20:30 [Permalink]
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Sure, 9+ months ago, Banks was calling him a deserter
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And, as far as we know now, that is the official army stand. No reason (now at least, unless you know something else) to think anyone else had it more correct than the official army stand. He stood to at least lose his General Discharge and his G.I. Bill benefits.
Having said that, I do not know what he knew when he at least hinted at greater punishments for being a deserter. Banks called him a deserter.
That's why we need reporters who ask questions. The interviews I've seen are either softball, or stupid right-wing nonsense. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/27/2009 10:28:37 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 11:45:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
And, as far as we know now, that is the official army stand. No reason (now at least, unless you know something else) to think anyone else had it more correct than the official army stand. He stood to at least lose his General Discharge and his G.I. Bill benefits. |
The official Amry stance was that he was to be given a general discharge under honorable conditions. Could he have screwed that up at the hearing, and got something worse? The Army had already made its determination. Short of murdering someone in the hearing room, I can't imagine them changing their minds so that he'd get Other Than Honorable, or that the Army would convene a Court Martial. No, if his arguments had persuaded them, he would have walked out with an Honorable Discharge. He couldn't do worse than he'd already done without ruining his credibility for the purposes of the resisters' movement. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 11:47:42 [Permalink]
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Yeah, we all do what we can do or maybe sometimes we don't. So, maybe Chiroux is an good-looking kid who wanted some fame and some time to smoke pot and get famous.
He got himself a forum to speak out, and he did it. Maybe he did it wrong. Maybe he's all the things that they say he is. Maybe he wants to be John Kerry.
Maybe we shouldn't let people speak out until they do it the way I think they should do it.
I'm glad I didn't have to face the question. I had a high number the only year I had to face the draft, and the Vietnam war was winding down anyway so whatever I say is easy, I suppose. I barely knew it was going on. I surely had no idea why.
When I was his age, I was completely ignorant. I'm still completely ignorant, but the difference is that sometimes I remember it. Sometimes I don't. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Refuses illegal war
