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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/02/2010 : 13:24:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy
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| Can't go by the polls, Bill, especally polls conducted on the American populace. |
I can't go by the polls when evaluating the current landscape of public opinion? What barometer would you use?
I never said, nor implied, that the pew public opinion poll dis-credited the man made global warming climate change agenda. I merely stated that this was overwhelming evidence that in the court of public opinion the folks rank man made global warming climate change dead last, basically rendering it a moot point. As we have seen with Obamacare, when the agenda being pushed does not resonate with the folks it is very tough to ram any policy through, so, publicly and politically speaking the man made global warming climate change agenda can be labeled as DOA. Not good for the up and coming cap and trade bill. The politicians will then have to explain in their 2010 midterm election bid why they raised the costs of the folk's energy, in the middle of a severe recession, over an issue that the folks considered to have very little importance.
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I don't give a rat's ass about public opinion for the reason pointed out above: the general public is bone ignorant of the topic. Pubic opinion is of value only to politicians, most of whom are also bone ignorant. That pathetic dunce from OK, Inhofe, comes to mind. I am interested only in the reality of the science, much of politics being based on lies, anyway.
I state this as a friend; you need to educate yourself, Bill.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/02/2010 13:32:50 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 14:30:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
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| I don't give a rat's ass about public opinion for the reason pointed out above: |
But without public opinion you will have a hard hard time moving along the man made global warming climate change agenda. But as some on this forum have suggested, old farts, such as yourself, don't need worry about stuff that won't be effecting their short time left on this planet anyway. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 14:32:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Bill scott
And here is one of the reasons I believe most folks have grown numb to the man made global warming anthropogenic climate change alarmists cries. These over the top and totally unfounded and baseless claims such as the mid-west being a dessert or Orlando becoming an island, ALL IN THE NEXT 10 YEARS. |
But Dude didn't say that. He said he'd buy in the next 10 years, and that the disasters would occur after that. And he's right.| As one who resides in the mid-west we are in the middle of a much colder then normal winter, which we have had for 3-4 years in a row now. We just had the coldest July since the keeping of records, and your trying to convince these folks that 9 years from now they will be living in the tropics. Most ain't buying it. |
Nobody is trying to convince them of that except the denialists who want people to believe that the scientists are just crying "wolf!"
That's almost the whole problem. The scientists are quite rationally stating that unless we do something now, our grandchildren and their grandchildren are going to feel the pain. But the people with the big microphones are shouting that the scientists are forecasting doom and gloom "IN THE NEXT 10 YEARS," so the scientists' actual message is ignored in favor of the ravings of anti-science lunatics and corporate boot-lickers. The only "hoax" around the AGW issue is the nonsense spewed by the denialists.
And it's funny you should mention the "totally unfounded and baseless claims such as the mid-west being a dessert" when that's exactly what it was a little less than 80 years ago. So another part of the problem would seem to be people's short memories.
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Regardless if it is 10 years or 30 years the fact that dude is talking about buying farmland of mid-west quality in Norway is the over the top hyperbole that the folks have rejected. Just look at the poll. They are more concerned with morals then Norwegian farmland. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 14:52:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Regardless if it is 10 years or 30 years the fact that dude is talking about buying farmland of mid-west quality in Norway is the over the top hyperbole... |
Except that people are growing good wine grapes in England, now. That wasn't possible a few decades ago.| ...that the folks have rejected. Just look at the poll. They are more concerned with morals then Norwegian farmland. |
Yes, "the folks" reject it because denialists have convinced them, without evidence, that AGW is nothing to worry about, by doing what you do, Bill: calling it a "hoax," re-affirming that local weather is an indicator of global climate, making 3rd-grade attacks on Al Gore, and generally speaking loudly from ignorance. Their political machinations and oil-company-driven propaganda will hurt my kid's kids' kids' kids (and some other people's kids a lot sooner), and your complicity with such ethical crimes very much annoys me. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/02/2010 : 16:47:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy
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| I don't give a rat's ass about public opinion for the reason pointed out above: |
But without public opinion you will have a hard hard time moving along the man made global warming climate change agenda. But as some on this forum have suggested, old farts, such as yourself, don't need worry about stuff that won't be effecting their short time left on this planet anyway.
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I follow the science, not the motor-mouths.
As for not worrying about it, of course I worry. After the hell I went through with the ex to get my genes in the pool, I want to be sure they will stay there.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 17:05:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Dude |
| This is another issue that I have become numb about. |
So has the American public, according to Pew. Like I said, charts or no charts, when Al lives like a heathen all while preaching sacrifice his sky is falling message starts to fall on deaf ears.
| If the fucking imbeciles of the world continue to believe this is some hoax and is not an urgent matter, I really no longer care. |
That was my point, sort of. Whether they believe the man made global warming anthropogenic climate change alarmists or not, the latest pew poll shows that Americans do not care about man made global warming anthropogenic climate change. And here we have a man made global warming anthropogenic climate change alarmist himself who does not even care anymore. That is why I am saying cap and trade faces a stiff uphill climb and one could make the case that man made global warming anthropogenic climate change is a moot point. At least in the public and political realm of opinion it is.
| If the governments of the world don't get their shit together in spite of the retards like Bill who deny anthropogenic climate change, |
So the governments of the world can't get their story straight because of me?
| then in 10 years I will just be buying a large bit of land in Canada or maybe Norway, something close to the artic circle, a bit of permafrost that will become amazing farmland when the US midewst is a giant desert, when Orlando and London are islands, and the North Sea is the new Med. |
And here is one of the reasons I believe most folks have grown numb to the man made global warming anthropogenic climate change alarmists cries. These over the top and totally unfounded and baseless claims such as the mid-west being a dessert or Orlando becoming an island, ALL IN THE NEXT 10 YEARS. As one who resides in the mid-west we are in the middle of a much colder then normal winter, which we have had for 3-4 years in a row now. We just had the coldest July since the keeping of records, and your trying to convince these folks that 9 years from now they will be living in the tropics. Most ain't buying it. That and the elitists man made global warming anthropogenic climate change people who fly private and ride in limo's all while preaching sacrifice to the masses. They don't help the cause either.
| I'll also be switching my 401k (if the world enonomy doesn't totally implode) (meager as it is) into companies that are making those giant CO2 scrubbers capable of removing a few metric tons of CO2 an hour from the air, and other such things. |
What about the offshore wind farms?
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I no longer care Bill, because when you fucking idiots all drown it will bring a smile to my face. Maybe when your children/grandchildren die off in the impending sea level shift, and mass famine to follow, the world collective IQ will rise enough that the people left will be able to comprehend basic facts about the nature of the world and act accordingly.
Yes, that will be a happy day for me :P
Until then, please enjoy your SUVs, coal fired electricity generation, and industrial farming. In fact, I encourage you to be even more reckless. The sooner TX sinks the better, imo.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 17:06:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
This was a poll of the American people, not the right wing media |
If the right wing media is acting like global warming is disproven (which was the question asked in the OP), and you answer that there was a poll and this was probably the reason, than the right wing media is completely incapable of understanding argumentation.
| I never said that it was. I said that whether true or not, it was last on the list of concerns for Americans according to the latest pew poll. Americans are more concerned over our lose of morals then man made global warming anthropogenic climate change. |
Okay.
| Nor does any scientific consensus have any effect on climate, or it's change, nor could it. |
But it does give us a knowledge about it and whether we need to do something about it.
For the world. It is the year with the second or third (depending on which global average you use) warmest global average temperature on record.
| It's not hard for me to understand. |
Than why bring up a cold last two weeks of December as some kind of rhetorical argument. That doesn't convey a message that you have any idea what you are talking about. To go into further detail, at least in Europe the summer had almost continuous temperatures above monthly normals (although not record levels yet) and while we had cold spells in the end of 2009, Australia was reporting record warmths both in the beginning and end of 2009.
| I just find it rather funny that you actually have faith in the averages and variances that you compare. |
I have the same faith in those as I have in any other scientific construct. Hey, I'm an epidemiologist. Dealing with averages is what I do. If you have a better idea, be my guest to explain it.
| But completely relevant in the court of public opinion, which is crucial for advancing any man made global warming anthropogenic climate change agenda in todays political environment. It reminds me of the famous fable of the boy who cried wolf. Folks can only take so much of the elitists in the man made global warming climate change crowd flying around in private jets, riding through blizzards in their stretch lemo to get to the man made global warming climate change summit, running up private utilities bills that could power a small town before they begin to tune out the man made global warming climate change alarmists shouting and lecturing. See folks can only take being lectured to by a fat man who flies private jets and vacations on a fossil fuel burning yacht about personal sacrifice for so long before they just dismiss him. Al Gore has become the Benny Hinn of the man made global warming anthropogenic climate change movement. Shoot I would not be surprised if Al and Benny's private jets passed each other on more then one occasion as they both hop from town to town raking to the dough. See Al can run through all the computer models up on power point that he wants to but as long as he has the perception that he don't walk the talk then he is just the Benny Hinn of the man made global warming climate change movement. |
I agree this is a PR-problem, I just don't care about Al Gore. At all. And I'm surprised every time someone brings it up. As far as I'm concerned, he is a double edged sword. He's been able to get a lot of attention to the problem, but is unable?/unwilling? to give up some things that he possibly might.
| You have completely missed the point. Your going to have to have the American people believe that the earth is flat before you can advance your flat earth agenda, politically at least. Same with the man made global warming anthropogenic climate change agenda. If the folks ain't on board then it will be tough to advance the cause in the public and political arenas. What I am saying is that currently Americans are more concerned with our lose of morals then with any man made global warming anthropogenic climate change agenda, so, politically speaking, it is currently dead. |
That depends. That Americans do not consider the issue a top priority does not mean that Americans think the government should not take any action on the issue. People expect the government to govern on all issues, not only on those that people think have priority today.
| And you really gain ground on advancing your man made global warming climate change agenda with insults. (sigh) Well that and Al (Benny Hinn) Gore out there flying around in his private jet and the monstrosity of lemo's parked out front of the man made global warming anthropogenic climate change summit during a blizzard did not help. |
Perhaps not. But as creationists and homeopaths have taught us, approaching people with unscientific ideas as if they have a valid argument only gives them legitimacy. We'll indeed need to counter the global warming denialists who convince the public that legitimate scientific theories are "alarmist", but I don't think we'll do that by pretending these people have any kind of credibility. And we'll need to convince the public while realizing that a large part of the American public is completely and utterly scientifically illiterate. You may find that insulting, the problem is that it is also true. Not everybody is an expert, in fact, most people are not.
I will say that reading the item again, there might be hope yet. The poll you linked to only concerned whether people thought the issue should have priority, not whether they thought action should be taken or whether they thought the scientific consensus is correct or not. Next to that, democrats also did not rank it last, although it was still ranked as one of the lowest priorities. Now if only the democrats in your government had spines.
| Your theory that older Americans reject the man made global warming climate anthropogenicchange agenda simply because they hold a belief that they will not be around to have to deal with the aftermath is flawed. Older Americans are extremely alarmed about the current and rising total of our national debt. They are much more concerned with the effects it will have on their children and grand children's future then they are worried with their own future. See the moral of the story is not that older Americans dismiss issues that they see as not having a negative effect in their lifetime, but that older Americans are greatly concerned with future generations when they see a credible risk or threat at hand. See, right now they just consider man made anthropogenic global warming climate change to be less of a threat to future generations then the lose of morals. And so my fine feathered friend the man made global warming anthropogenic climate change agenda has lost in the court of public opinion and it consensus. |
Are they? Are they more concerned about the national debt than they are with their own future? I'm sorry, but given the complete unwillingness of congress to take any steps in mitigating it, the teabagging idiots, the FOX-news blatherskytes, I don't think you are correct in that assessment. Also, "morals" (whatever is meant by those by the people answering the question) can be determined by the future generation itself. That the older generations give them priority demonstrate beyond a doubt the fact that future generations may not be the thing these people are concerned about.
There is again hope though, given that education ranked on the top 3. Perhaps there is some self-awareness going on here? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 17:10:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Except that people are growing good wine grapes in England, now. That wasn't possible a few decades ago. |
That is actually a questionable statement. Grapes have a long history of being grown in England. That they weren't grown a couple of decades ago might be better explained by whether people wanted to, rather than whether they could.
http://www.english-wine.com/history.html
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 18:20:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Dave W.
Except that people are growing good wine grapes in England, now. That wasn't possible a few decades ago. |
That is actually a questionable statement. Grapes have a long history of being grown in England. That they weren't grown a couple of decades ago might be better explained by whether people wanted to, rather than whether they could.
http://www.english-wine.com/history.html |
Ah. I either misunderstood or misheard an NPR report on this a year ago or so (or my memory is shot, or NPR got it wrong, or all four). And a RealClimate report from 2006 questions whether vineyards can be a temperature proxy (but notes that the opposite claim has been used by denialists).
Sloppy of me. There are a zillion good examples of the effects we already see from the climate change that's already occurred, and I thought English wines were one of them. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 22:49:47 [Permalink]
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| Why do you think global warming is of little importance to people when nearly two-thirds of the people in the poll you cited considered dealing with global warming important? |
| Edited by - podcat on 02/02/2010 22:52:08 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 23:13:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by podcat
Why do you think global warming is of little importance to people when nearly two-thirds of the people in the poll you cited considered dealing with global warming important? |
Actually, the poll found that only 28% of people found "dealing with global warming" to be a "top priority."
Bill chose to compare this to the "dealing with moral breakdown" question. But we can also compare that question with the "protecting the environment" question (which, really, goes hand-in-hand with "dealing with global warming"), and then see that the environment was more important than morals in six out of the last ten years, and they were tied in one other year. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 02:41:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.Ah. I either misunderstood or misheard an NPR report on this a year ago or so (or my memory is shot, or NPR got it wrong, or all four). And a RealClimate report from 2006 questions whether vineyards can be a temperature proxy (but notes that the opposite claim has been used by denialists).
Sloppy of me. There are a zillion good examples of the effects we already see from the climate change that's already occurred, and I thought English wines were one of them.
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Nature had a great article on this in 2003 linky.
It's interesting stuff. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 02/03/2010 02:42:53 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 04:06:52 [Permalink]
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Something interesting.
Not definitive by itself but when added to the rest of the evidence, it adds a little more weight.
Jumbo squid ink-jet their way to Newport Beach
The invasion of the oversized creatures in Orange Country has prompted fishing-boat operators to add nighttime voyages.
Frankie Duenas of Anaheim holds a jumbo squid he landed off Newport Beach. (Liz Garcia / Newport Landing Sportfishing / March 21, 2007)
By Amina Khan
February 2, 2010
E-mail Print Share Text Size
Braedon Flynn got the text Friday from his friend Ryan Lawlor: Jumbo squid had invaded the waters off Newport Beach.
Flynn, a Newport Beach native who had been around fishing all his life, had never encountered the oversized creatures. Lawlor, who'd tangled with them a few years ago off San Diego, promised to call Flynn if the squid ever made it to Newport Beach.
So Flynn and Lawlor grabbed fishing rods Saturday night and jumped on a private boat with a third buddy, trailing a commercial vessel that was using sonar to locate the squid population.
Flynn said he had one thing in mind: calamari steak. On moonlit waters two miles off the coast, the trio caught six Humboldt squid, each between 4 and 5 feet long. A commercial-market squid is about the size of a human hand.
"It was a good fight," Flynn, 28, said of his ink-stained prizes, now sitting chopped up in a freezer. "They're really heavy, they're going against you -- your rods are practically bent to the water."
The invasion of the jumbo squid in Orange County -- not to be confused with the exceedingly rare and much larger giant squid -- has prompted fishing-boat operators to add nighttime voyages.
The operators have reported that since Thursday evening, anglers have landed more than 1,000 of the squid. |
The big Humbolt squid are changing their migration patterns, probably due to climate change.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 04:34:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Something interesting.
Not definitive by itself but when added to the rest of the evidence, it adds a little more weight.
Jumbo squid ink-jet their way to Newport Beach
The invasion of the oversized creatures in Orange Country has prompted fishing-boat operators to add nighttime voyages.
Frankie Duenas of Anaheim holds a jumbo squid he landed off Newport Beach. (Liz Garcia / Newport Landing Sportfishing / March 21, 2007)
By Amina Khan
February 2, 2010
E-mail Print Share Text Size
Braedon Flynn got the text Friday from his friend Ryan Lawlor: Jumbo squid had invaded the waters off Newport Beach.
Flynn, a Newport Beach native who had been around fishing all his life, had never encountered the oversized creatures. Lawlor, who'd tangled with them a few years ago off San Diego, promised to call Flynn if the squid ever made it to Newport Beach.
So Flynn and Lawlor grabbed fishing rods Saturday night and jumped on a private boat with a third buddy, trailing a commercial vessel that was using sonar to locate the squid population.
Flynn said he had one thing in mind: calamari steak. On moonlit waters two miles off the coast, the trio caught six Humboldt squid, each between 4 and 5 feet long. A commercial-market squid is about the size of a human hand.
"It was a good fight," Flynn, 28, said of his ink-stained prizes, now sitting chopped up in a freezer. "They're really heavy, they're going against you -- your rods are practically bent to the water."
The invasion of the jumbo squid in Orange County -- not to be confused with the exceedingly rare and much larger giant squid -- has prompted fishing-boat operators to add nighttime voyages.
The operators have reported that since Thursday evening, anglers have landed more than 1,000 of the squid. |
The big Humbolt squid are changing their migration patterns, probably due to climate change.
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See, Filthy? Not only is AGW a hoax intended to keep worthless climatologists employed, it's also a proven boon for fishermen! In short: It's not happening, but it's a good thing. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 06:04:32 [Permalink]
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| See, Filthy? Not only is AGW a hoax intended to keep worthless climatologists employed, it's also a proven boon for fishermen! In short: It's not happening, but it's a good thing. |
But of course! 
On the moral issues thing, I'd like some firm evidence on where morals have changed a single iota over the generations. People, sadly/happily, remain people whatever the culture; whatever the race. Some are saints and some are scumbags, and I'll wager that the overall percentages have changed little, if any. Heh, it's a little astonishing to see which are saints and which bags the scum. In the latter category, I place any who would impose their version of "morals" on someone else. Ted Haggard, Randall Terry, Scott Roeder and that Dobson creep come quickly to mind....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Did I miss something about climate change?
