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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/24/2010 : 06:20:02 [Permalink]
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Read the article I posted. Ilse was retried, not for arts & crafts, but her part in abusing and murdering prisoners. She was sentenced to life in prison, and hanged herself in 1967.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 06:35:05 [Permalink]
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The Nuremberg testimony of Rudolph Hoess:
Testimony of Rudolf Hoess, Commandant of Auschwitz
[Testimony on Monday, April 15, 1946]
Morning Session
DR. KAUFFMANN: With the agreement of the Tribunal, I now call the witness Hoess.
[The witness Hoess took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Stand up. Will you state your name?
RUDOLF FRANZ FERDINAND HOESS (Witness): Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: "I swear by God,the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth,and will withhold and add nothing.
[The witness repeated the oath in German.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you sit down?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Witness, your statements will have far-reaching significance. You are perhaps the only one who can throw some light upon certain hidden aspects, and who can tell which people gave the orders for the destruction of European Jewry, and can further state how this order was carried out and to what degree the execution was kept a secret.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, will you kindly put questions to the witness.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes.
[Turning to the witness.] From 1940 to 1943, you were the Commander of the camp at Auschwitz. Is that true?
HOESS: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: And during that time, hundreds of thousands of human beings were sent to their death there. Is that correct?
HOESS: Yes.
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It continues in detail,
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 07:43:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
I have provided definitive evidence that the bodies of the victims at Dachau and Belsen are of typhus victims, the USA Today article reporting the epidemic at Belsen that killed 35,000 and the Frontline video that shows the British entry into Dachau. There is no real doubt on this topic. |
The fact that thousands died of disease at Bergen-Belsen does not mean that every death was from disease. That's logically equivalent to saying that because one apple has a worm in it, then all apples must have worms in them.| A little more on the photos - the Belsen and Dachau photos have been endlessly shown in the US media as evidence of the holocaust. We've all seen them. Over and over, I believe. They are for all practical purposes the ONLY 'evidence' that we have seen, and that 'evidence' is, to anyone who has studied the matter even a little, an obvious fraud. |
You declare them frauds for two reasons: 1) you have illogically decided that all victims were victims of disease, and 2) you have decided that to be a "victim of the Holocaust" one must have died from gassing, instead of disease due to horrific conditions in a labor camp, which is a distinction that isn't supported by the definition you offered.| And, we have NEVER seen the pictures of the healthy prisoners and children in the camps. The only reason you have seen them now is because of the internet. |
And PBS, apparently. You're trying to make the argument that because these images have never been before, they've been hidden away on purpose to make the "Holocaust narrative" seem more real. But you won't come right out and say so, and you've provided no evidence for the necessary conspiracy, and have provided no evidence that such photos have been absent from publicly available hardcopy archives for decades.| Jumping ahead a bit - I will post a 'testimony' thread and a 'conspiracy' thread. |
And there's part of your problem: you want to examine the physical evidence independent of the testimony, but since the two support each other, that's a mistake.| I will discuss the media's role in publishing false evidence and suppressing evidence that isn't consistent with the holocaust narrative in that thread. |
You've yet to provide any inconsistent evidence.| So, summarizing to this point, Dr. Robert Jan Van Pelt has said that there is no physical evidence for 99% of what we know about the holocaust, and I agree with him. |
You are still misrepresenting his statements. Agree with a lie all you like, it will still be a lie.| And thus far there is nothing in this thread that would cause me to change my mind. |
Of course not. Your mind was made up on the basis of logical fallacies and irrationality. It's said that a person can't be reasoned out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into. We have evidence in this thread of your lack of using the tools of reason to reach a conclusion.| If there is no physical evidence... |
You keep saying this, even though you know it to be false. Why would that be?I note that there is fraudulent and/or misinterpreted physical evidence that is often given as evidence of the holocaust. I can think of -
1. The 'gas chamber' at Auschwitz |
An admitted museum replica. Who is presenting it as "evidence?"| 2. The 'gas chamber' at Madjanek |
What's wrong with it?| 3. The crematorium rooms, II and III ?, at Auschwitz |
They were destroyed, yes?4. The Wannsee 'protocol'
5. A tape of a Himmler speech
6. A construction note with 'gas chamber' written on it
7. There are Nazi documents supposedly documenting a massacre at Babi Yar
8. There is a recent report of mass graves at one of the Reinhard camps, I forget which, but there was no excavation. |
What about these things?| There is no doubt more but this is what I'm familiar with. So if I believed the holocaust narrative, and I believed that any of the 'evidence' above was legitimate, I would present it in this thread. I don't believe the holocaust narrative, and I'm ready to argue against any of the above 'evidence'. I'll discuss items 1 and 2 above in the conspiracy thread.///// on second thought, a 'gas chamber' thread is in order I think. |
No, it's physical evidence. Don't spread yourself too thin.Apparently.| False evidence like this definitely fuels my skepticism. |
Why is it false evidence? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 08:34:22 [Permalink]
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[You've yet to provide any inconsistent evidence.]
If you cannot understand that pictures of healthy prisoners, including children, many Jews, in a concentration camp at the end of the war directly contradicts the holocaust narrative that the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jewish population, I can't help you. The facts are clear. I won't further belabor the point.
[You are still misrepresenting his statements.]
He said exactly that we do not have physical evidence for 99% of what we know about the holocaust. I did not misrepresent it at all.
[You keep saying this, even though you know it to be false. Why would that be?]
Why don't you post a list and description of the physical evidence.
Thus far, I'm posting the evidence and arguing against it. LOL.
[An admitted museum replica. Who is presenting it as "evidence?"]
It (Krema 1) was 'admitted' after it was exposed in a David Cole video you can see here ... until the late 80s the 'gas chamber' was presented as in it's found condition after the war.
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DC/gcgvcole.html
The video includes a tour of Auschwitz with a museum guide and is very informative.
[What's wrong with it?]
The Majdanek 'gas chamber' has a window. It is obviously not a gas chamber.
[What about these things?]
I should not have to present both sides of the argument. First someone must argue that they are valid evidence, and give the reasons.
[No, it's physical evidence. Don't spread yourself too thin.]
Of course the 'gas chambers' are presented as physical evidence. It deserves a thread of it's own.
[Why is it false evidence?]
A picture of people walking on a road is not evidence of anything.
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| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/24/2010 08:44:08 |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 08:42:23 [Permalink]
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[Read the article I posted. Ilse was retried, not for arts & crafts, but her part in abusing and murdering prisoners. She was sentenced to life in prison, and hanged herself in 1967.]
I will get to the trials in the conspiracy thread. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 09:30:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
[You've yet to provide any inconsistent evidence.]
If you cannot understand that pictures of healthy prisoners, including children, many Jews, in a concentration camp at the end of the war directly contradicts the holocaust narrative that the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jewish population, I can't help you. The facts are clear. |
The facts are clear: obviously not all European Jews were exterminated. Some remained. Some were healthy. That's a big part of the "Holocaust narrative," so it doesn't contradict it at all.
In fact, Jews were a minority at both Bergen-Belsen and Dacahu, so you'll have to provide evidence that the people photographed are Jews or another group specifically targeted by the Nazis for total extermination, unlike (for example) the thousands of political prisoners and Russian POWs held at both camps.
Heck, you should provide evidence that the photos are actually of people in the camp right as the liberators came driving through, and not days or weeks later, as Bergen-Belsen was used as a displaced-persons camp after liberation.| I won't further belabor the point. |
Of course you won't, because you're afraid to admit your conclusions about the photos are illogical.[You are still misrepresenting his statements.]
He said exactly that we do not have physical evidence for 99% of what we know about the holocaust. I did not misrepresent it at all. |
No, he said, "Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove..." That's the quote you provided. You keep irrationally transforming that into the idea that 99% of the evidence does not exist on your way to trying to make the case that such evidence never existed.[You keep saying this, even though you know it to be false. Why would that be?]
Why don't you post a list and description of the physical evidence. |
Either there is no physical evidence, or we're missing 99% of the physical evidence. It can't be both. You said that you agreed with the 99% figure, but then turn around and say that there is none.| Thus far, I'm posting the evidence and arguing against it. LOL. |
That's what you need to do in order to demonstrate that the Holocaust is a hoax. You set yourself on this task, so quit whining about the work you need to do.[An admitted museum replica. Who is presenting it as "evidence?"]
It (Krema 1) was 'admitted' after it was exposed in a David Cole video you can see here ... until the late 80s the 'gas chamber' was presented as in it's found condition after the war. |
So you're stuck on something that allegedly happened 30 years ago, and so implying that it is still being presented as fraudulent evidence? That's just bizarre of you.[What's wrong with it?]
The Majdanek 'gas chamber' has a window. It is obviously not a gas chamber. |
What makes that "obvious" to you?[What about these things?]
I should not have to present both sides of the argument. First someone must argue that they are valid evidence, and give the reasons. |
No. You made the claim that they are fake evidence, unprovoked by anyone. You go ahead and show us both who's using them as evidence, and why they're not evidence. That is what you need to do in order to show that they are, instead, evidence that the "Holocaust narrative" is a hoax. Which is your claim, and so it is yours to defend. Nobody else is obligated to help by presenting another side of the argument.[No, it's physical evidence. Don't spread yourself too thin.]
Of course the 'gas chambers' are presented as physical evidence. It deserves a thread of it's own. |
Why? Why not this current thread on the physical evidence?[Why is it false evidence?]
A picture of people walking on a road is not evidence of anything. |
I don't see anyone presenting them as evidence of anything. They're certainly not presented as a part of an argument in favor of belief in the "Holocaust narrative." I see them presented as mere facts. In your mind, they would be a part of the "Holocaust narrative," and thus not evidence in its favor.
No, you need to show us someone who presents those photos (or photos like them) and then says, "these photos of people walking to their doom prove that the Holocaust happened." Then you'll make the case that they are "false evidence." Until then, it looks like you're mistaking description for argumentation, another logical failure on your part. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 09:39:55 [Permalink]
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Rudolfo:
The photos of the healthy prisoners, and smiling children, and many were Jews I believe, is in no way compatible with the standard holocaust narrative. It suggests to me that the narrative is false. |
Rudolfo:
If you cannot understand that pictures of healthy prisoners, including children, many Jews, in a concentration camp at the end of the war directly contradicts the holocaust narrative that the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jewish population, I can't help you. The facts are clear. I won't further belabor the point. |
Rudolfo, the first time you presented this, you offered a qualifier because you don't really know if they were Jews. You stated that it was your belief that they were. And now you have thrown out the qualifier and have just stated that there were "many Jews" in the photo's and go on to say that the facts are clear. But you have already admitted that the facts are not even clear to you. You don't get to present the photo's as fact that the people being liberated are Jews unless you can back up that claim. Your belief is not equivalent to a fact, no matter how much you want it to be.
It seems that you have some idea that because you hold a belief that it somehow magically transforms into a fact as evidenced by several statements you have made in this thread. That's both illogical and intellectually dishonest. I dunno, but it seems to me that that's not what we should be seeing coming from a real skeptic.
Also, there is the matter of when these people were interred, and a whole bunch of other questions that need answers before you can make statements of fact about who they were and why they should not be smiling if the holocaust narrative is correct, Jews or not.
Faulty logic leads to faulty conclusions.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 10:24:17 [Permalink]
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Hey, look at that photo again. Something just occurred to me. That's an American flag flying there. So this picture wasn't taken as Allied troops were just entering the camp, but is, instead, clearly a staged scene. So it's quite likely that the weak and the sick were being cared for at the time this photo was taken, and so do not appear in it.
So much for it being evidence against the "Holocaust narrative." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 11:17:14 [Permalink]
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[I don't see anyone presenting them as evidence of anything. They're certainly not presented as a part of an argument in favor of belief in the "Holocaust narrative." I see them presented as mere facts. In your mind, they would be a part of the "Holocaust narrative," and thus not evidence in its favor.]
This is a classic !
You can't be serious. This is pure nonsense. It's like good ole Bill Clinton trying to redefine the meaning of 'is'. Parsing language the way you are doing it makes communication impossible, let alone argument.
I was hoping that someone would defend the picture of 'the unaware walking to the gas chamber', but I couldn't have imagined anything this ridiculous.
As to van Pelt saying we do not have the evidence where I said it doesn't exist, again, I'll have to consult with Clinton's secretary to clear that one up, that is, to find out if there is any difference in the two versions. But I'm also happy with 'we do not have 99% of the physical evidence'. Since we do not have it, how do we know it exists? How to find it? If you find any let me know ! LOL.
So, van Pelt says 'we do not have the physical evidence for 99% of what we know about the holocaust'. Perfect. I agree. I amend my statement.
So, the question remains, without having physical evidence, why does anyone believe the holocaust narrative. Unless van Pelt is proven wrong, and we have or get some additional physical evidence, I believe the we should look for the answers in the testimony thread (yet to appear).
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 11:20:59 [Permalink]
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Healthy Jews. Unfortunately, they have just arrived at Auswitch-Birkenau, where they quickly became other than healthy.
Jewish families at the ramp in Birkenau
Family of Slovak Jewess Lili Jacob (her aunt Tauba with her four children) awaiting for a selection at the ramp in Birkenau. During the selection all were send to gas chambers. The transport from the ghetto in Beregszasz in Hungary left on May 17, 1944 and arrived on May 27, 1945. (Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum Archives)
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Photo in the link.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 11:33:53 [Permalink]
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From ...
This is the best info I could find on the percentage of Jews in Dachau ....
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Dachauscrapbook/prisoners.html
"According to Paul Berben, a former prisoner, who wrote a book called "Dachau: 1933 - 1945: The Official History," there were 67,649 prisoners in Dachau and its sub-camps when the last census was taken on April 26, 1945, three days before the US 7th Army arrived to liberate the camp.
......
There was a total of 22,100 Jews in the Dachau system on April 26, 1945 and most of them were in the subcamps."
Apparently most of the prisoners at Belsen were Jews, ....
http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/fi/vol07/no03/jews.htm
"For example, out of 23,000 burials since “liberation” at Bergen-Belsen concentration camp, 90 per cent were Jews." |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/24/2010 11:40:01 |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 11:46:32 [Permalink]
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| Would you not agree that 1% is more than none? And before you quibble that 1% is infinitesimal and should be considered as equal to none, consider that the total mass of our solar system is much less than 1% of the total mass of the universe, but to us, it's still a whole heapin, bunch o' mass. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 11:50:51 [Permalink]
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| Rudolfo started as a supposedly rational "skeptic" but I predict that it won't be long before he reveals his true opinions. I'm already noticing clues. I think it's way too coincidental that both Rudolfo and dantheman have shown up here within a week of each other. If it quacks like a duck... |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 11:58:40 [Permalink]
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From the link that you provided, Rudolfo:
| As has already been mentioned, there were times when even children were imprisoned in Dachau. The International Committee saw to it that they were not abandoned. A school was organized for Russian children under a Yugoslavian teacher, and the older ones were placed in Kommandos [subsidiary work camps of Dachau] where they were looked after by prisoners who tried not only to keep them in good health but to teach them the rudiments of a trade as well. |
The bolding is mine.
So, Rudolfo, here are your choices. You can either admit that you don't know enough about the pictures to allow them to "fuel your skepticism" about the holocaust narrative, or you can use them to confirm your bias by interpreting them the way you want to, even though the facts about them are far from clear, and enough questions about them have been raised to easily challenge what you think they represent.
Let's see how honest you are.
Oh, and going out and looking for support because I pointed out an inconsistency in your posts, does not erase-erase the fact that you went ahead and proclaimed what you did not know to be a fact, as a fact.
Admitting your mistake might help, however...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 12:38:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
[I don't see anyone presenting them as evidence of anything. They're certainly not presented as a part of an argument in favor of belief in the "Holocaust narrative." I see them presented as mere facts. In your mind, they would be a part of the "Holocaust narrative," and thus not evidence in its favor.]
This is a classic !
You can't be serious. This is pure nonsense. It's like good ole Bill Clinton trying to redefine the meaning of 'is'. Parsing language the way you are doing it makes communication impossible, let alone argument. |
If you fail to make the distinction between documentation and argument, it's no wonder that you are fleeing from the debate and refusing to acknowledge the demonstrations of your logical failures.
Again, the photo isn't evidence of the Holocaust narrative. You have placed yourself in the unenviable position that you are forced to say that it is presented as evidence in order to proclaim "this isn't evidence of anything," which everyone else already knew, including the people who published the photo. You built yourself a strawman, set it on fire, and now you're complaining and projecting because it's burned you.| I was hoping that someone would defend the picture of 'the unaware walking to the gas chamber', but I couldn't have imagined anything this ridiculous. |
Still, nobody has defended it. It's not evidence. It never was evidence. It's not being presented as evidence. You imagined that it was evidence, and when I agreed that it's not evidence, you chose to ridicule me instead of addressing my point.
Where have I heard that complaint before?| So, the question remains, without having physical evidence, why does anyone believe the holocaust narrative. |
Because the physical evidence isn't the whole story, and you know it. So does Van Pelt.| ...I believe the we should look for the answers in the testimony thread (yet to appear). |
Promises, promises. If you do as well in that thread as you have in this one, you'll leave tons of questions unanswered, and much of your illogic hanging out for everyone to see (and for you to deny without reason).
Here are some unanswered questions:- Why should more evidence be required for the Holocaust than is required for the historicity of George Washington?
- What does a picture of a battleship prove? Where is there any physical evidence that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor? What is it about the evidence at Pearl Harbor that makes it substantially different from the evidence for the Holocaust?
- Why should we think that such photos are necessarily from Dachau or Belsen? Are you suggesting that because there are photos of smiling prisoners in prison camps greeting their liberators, that millions did not die in total?
- Who is presenting the gas chamber at Auschwitz as "evidence?" Why does a window disprove that a room was a gas chamber?
You also wrote:So? What happened to the 50,000 Russian POWs housed at Belsen? That 90% of the people who died after liberation were Jews doesn't tell us anything about the proportion of Jews in the camp the whole time it existed. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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What is the physical evidence for the holocaust?
