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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 03/23/2010 : 15:25:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
Physical evidence of the Pearl Harbor attack is abundant, if in doubt pay a visit, but off topic. |
No, it's on-topic because it speaks to what standards you have for declaring something "evidence." What particular items should I look for at Pearl Harbor? Sunken boats could have sank for a number of reasons. Japanese planes could have been brought in from many places. What is it about the evidence at Pearl Harbor that makes it substantially different from the evidence for the Holocaust?So what?| There were bomb craters with signs of ashes and remains of bodies on the walls which does not seem relevant. |
Yes, not relevant.| And there was a large area covered with ashes and 'countless' bones. That is, no data was taken on this at all. He mentions an odor of burning and decay. The camp had been razed years ago. He mentions skulls with no signs of injury but not how many. No data whatever. It's hard to know what to make of this. |
"No data" except for the dimensions of the ash fields and the size of some ash pits, is all. How many cremated humans can be packed into a square meter of sandy soil? (37 on average over 2 hectares gets us to 740,000 people.) Skulls without injury are consistent with gassing with diesel exhaust. Lukaszkiewicz says,During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves, which, in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned, all the more so since the camp was liquidated early and the murderers had much time. And hey, The Holocaust History Project has an photo of a mass grave at Treblinka, as it was opened and emptied. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 15:39:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
There are two points with the photos I've discussed ....
First, they are not evidence of the holocaust. |
They are also not evidence against the Holocaust.| And second, photos that show healthy prisoners and happy children in the concentration camps at the end of the war fuel my skepticism that there was a plan to exterminate anyone in the camps. |
There was no plan to exterminate anyone at the concentration camps. The plan was to exterminate people at the extermination camps, the six you have already mentioned, which do not include either Dachau or Belsen.
Thus, claiming that photos of smiling people being liberated from Dachau are evidence for skepticism of the Holocaust narrative is just like saying that this photo is cause for skepticism about the story of the sinking of the Titanic. It's a huge non-sequitor, not even bothering to dress itself up as anything remotely logical. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 15:48:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
The issues are separate. The gruesome photos are of typhus victims and are not evidence of the holocaust. That's just a fact. |
No, it's not. You've presented no evidence whatsoever that any photo discussed here is of typhus victims. Your say-so does not make something a fact.| The photos of the healthy prisoners, and smiling children, and many were Jews I believe, is in no way compatible with the standard holocaust narrative. It suggests to me that the narrative is false. |
Why? Because they were happy to be liberated? You said yourself that the photos were taken by Allied troops as they entered the camps. I'd be happy, were I a prisoner, to see non-Nazis coming in and opening the gates of the concentration camps. Wouldn't you? Might mean a doctor or two might show up, soon.
Note that such photos would be impossible for Treblinka, which was shut down two years before the War's end. There were no prisoners there to be liberated. They'd all either been burned or sent elsewhere.| ...I'm a real skeptic. Always have been. And I studied the matter for a bit before coming to any conclusions. |
But your conclusions are illogical. Rationality is the hallmark of a skeptic. Your conclusions are based on bald fallacies and seemingly irrational standards of evidence.| But, one does have to always be aware of confirmation bias, even me. You should consider your own bias ! |
Please do. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 17:06:13 [Permalink]
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I don't understand; there is information by the ton archived practically everywhere. From the camps to the testimony at Nuremberg, the Holocaust is intensely documented. All one has to do is look.
Here f'instance:
Soviet officials view stacked corpses of victims at the Klooga camp. Due to the rapid advance of Soviet forces, the Germans did not have time to burn the corpses.
Klooga, Estonia, 1944.
But don't just look at the pictures; read the text to get their context.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 17:07:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
There are two points with the photos I've discussed ....
First, they are not evidence of the holocaust.
And second, photos that show healthy prisoners and happy children in the concentration camps at the end of the war fuel my skepticism that there was a plan to exterminate anyone in the camps.
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I know that Dave already responded to this, but this is an incredibly silly thing to say. If you were about to be exterminated (or had just been in a camp for some time), would you perhaps not be happy to be let out of there? Similarly, if you saw some photos from my dad's funeral (some 1 hour before he was put into the ground) and saw some of us laughing, would that mean that we weren't grieving? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 19:15:14 [Permalink]
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Rudolfo, just to get an idea where you are coming from, I have a few questions for you.
We got visited by our very first-ever Holocaust denier a few weeks ago. We think that fellow's real name was Greg Gerdes, aka here as dantheman. He was another fellow who liked to quite similarly cut-and-paste and quote-mine. (Do you happen to know him? Are you dantheman?) I asked him the same questions, but he was apparently too cowardly to reply.
These questions should be easy to answer, as they each require a simply "yes" or "no," though you are welcome to elaborate:1. Are you a supporter of the former National Socialist regime of 1933 to 1945 in Germany?
2. Do you support the "philosophy" or policies of Adolf Hitler?
3. Do you consider yourself a Nazi, a skinhead, or a "Christian Identity" member or supporter?
4. Do you hate Jews in general? |
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/23/2010 19:19:00 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 19:40:37 [Permalink]
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Mooner:
He was another fellow who liked to quite similarly cut-and-paste and quote-mine. |
There was a bit of quote mining, but he seems to be speaking for himself and not really doing lots of cut and paste jobs. He is linking to stuff. I don't think Rudolfo's style is at all similar to dantheman. Just saying... His argument may be just as fallacious, but that's another thing.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 20:05:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Mooner:
He was another fellow who liked to quite similarly cut-and-paste and quote-mine. |
There was a bit of quote mining, but he seems to be speaking for himself and not really doing lots of cut and paste jobs. He is linking to stuff. I don't think Rudolfo's style is at all similar to dantheman. Just saying... His argument may be just as fallacious, but that's another thing.
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Okay, I'll keep my mind open, and try to read more carefully. Perhaps Rudolfo may care to clear this up by answering my question as to whether he's dantheman/Greg Gerdes.
And, or course, my other three questions stand. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 20:29:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
I don't have a confirmation bias, I'm not a Jew, or a Nazi, or a white-supremacist, or even a Democrat or Republican, I'm a real skeptic. |
The above should answer some of your questions, Mooner.
But really, it's just Rudolfo's attempt to claim that he's got no dog in this race. However, since he's trying to make the ridiculous argument that happy liberated prisoners from a political prison camp in Germany casts doubt on the idea that hundreds of thousands of Jews were gassed in each of several execution camps in Poland (or that the thousands who did die in the regular concentration camps did so only after liberation) suggests that Rudolfo isn't simply a disinterested skeptic looking for evidence. Especially when he declares, in a blanket, unqualified statement, that the "gruesome photos are of typhus victims," without providing a shred of evidence for such an extraordinary claim.
I am sure that Rudolfo has an agenda, because he's doing such a bad job of hiding it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 20:48:02 [Permalink]
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To use Rudolfo's il-logic...
WWII deaths estimates go up to 60 million. The above famous end of the war happy couple above is obvious evidence that it never happened.
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 20:52:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Rudolfo
I don't have a confirmation bias, I'm not a Jew, or a Nazi, or a white-supremacist, or even a Democrat or Republican, I'm a real skeptic. |
The above should answer some of your questions, Mooner.
But really, it's just Rudolfo's attempt to claim that he's got no dog in this race. However, since he's trying to make the ridiculous argument that happy liberated prisoners from a political prison camp in Germany casts doubt on the idea that hundreds of thousands of Jews were gassed in each of several execution camps in Poland (or that the thousands who did die in the regular concentration camps did so only after liberation) suggests that Rudolfo isn't simply a disinterested skeptic looking for evidence. Especially when he declares, in a blanket, unqualified statement, that the "gruesome photos are of typhus victims," without providing a shred of evidence for such an extraordinary claim.
I am sure that Rudolfo has an agenda, because he's doing such a bad job of hiding it.
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Missed that. I really should be fully awake before posting. (At least I haven't called him a "Nazi scum.") |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/23/2010 20:53:33 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 21:04:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Randy
To use Rudolfo's il-logic... |
We can have a contest!
Since the Apollo 13 crew looked happy and healthy after splashdown:
It casts doubt on the idea that the Apollo 1 disaster occurred, killing three astronauts:
Can anyone else find other examples?
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 05:52:26 [Permalink]
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Ilse Koch, The Bitch of Buchenwald
I thought I'd toss this into the pot because it's interesting, and I can remember hearing about this infamous madwoman as a child in the 40's. Check it out.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 06:03:26 [Permalink]
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I have provided definitive evidence that the bodies of the victims at Dachau and Belsen are of typhus victims, the USA Today article reporting the epidemic at Belsen that killed 35,000 and the Frontline video that shows the British entry into Dachau. There is no real doubt on this topic.
A little more on the photos - the Belsen and Dachau photos have been endlessly shown in the US media as evidence of the holocaust. We've all seen them. Over and over, I believe. They are for all practical purposes the ONLY 'evidence' that we have seen, and that 'evidence' is, to anyone who has studied the matter even a little, an obvious fraud.
And, we have NEVER seen the pictures of the healthy prisoners and children in the camps. The only reason you have seen them now is because of the internet. I take it as self evident that pictures of happy well fed children in a Nazi camp at the end of the war contradict the holocaust narrative in which the Nazi goal was to exterminate all European Jews.
Jumping ahead a bit - I will post a 'testimony' thread and a 'conspiracy' thread. I will discuss the media's role in publishing false evidence and suppressing evidence that isn't consistent with the holocaust narrative in that thread.
So, summarizing to this point, Dr. Robert Jan Van Pelt has said that there is no physical evidence for 99% of what we know about the holocaust, and I agree with him. And thus far there is nothing in this thread that would cause me to change my mind.
If there is no physical evidence, why would anyone, much less a skeptic, believe the holocaust narrative? Stay tuned.
I note that there is fraudulent and/or misinterpreted physical evidence that is often given as evidence of the holocaust. I can think of -
1. The 'gas chamber' at Auschwitz
2. The 'gas chamber' at Madjanek
3. The crematorium rooms, II and III ?, at Auschwitz
4. The Wannsee 'protocol'
5. A tape of a Himmler speech
6. A construction note with 'gas chamber' written on it
7. There are Nazi documents supposedly documenting a massacre at Babi Yar
8. There is a recent report of mass graves at one of the Reinhard camps, I forget which, but there was no excavation.
9. There is a French priest, I think, who is wandering all over Europe looking for mass graves, and 'finding' them.
There is no doubt more but this is what I'm familiar with. So if I believed the holocaust narrative, and I believed that any of the 'evidence' above was legitimate, I would present it in this thread. I don't believe the holocaust narrative, and I'm ready to argue against any of the above 'evidence'. I'll discuss items 1 and 2 above in the conspiracy thread.///// on second thought, a 'gas chamber' thread is in order I think.
Just for fun, let's look at a little more 'evidence' that is very widely publicized ...
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/unaware.html
Is there any need to debunk this nonsense?
False evidence like this definitely fuels my skepticism.
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| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/24/2010 07:00:53 |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2010 : 06:09:52 [Permalink]
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This is off topic, but instructive I think ....
[I thought I'd toss this into the pot because it's interesting, and I can remember hearing about this infamous madwoman as a child in the 40's. Check it out.]
Did you know that Ilse was investigated by the Nazi 'Bloodhound Judge' Konrad Morgan. Morgan also investigated her husband, Otto, for having 3 prisoners killed. He stationed several investigators in the camp, Buchenwald, for months, they interviewed camp personnel and prisoners. Ilse was exonerated, the rumors of lampshades, etc, were nonsense. Otto was hanged !
Morgen was tortured at Nuremberg to get him to implicate Ilse, he refused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Konrad_Morgen
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/trials/konradmorgen.html
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| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/24/2010 06:18:10 |
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What is the physical evidence for the holocaust?
