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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2010 :  16:37:56  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5i8w7UMEJS6gcCPHJCO4vqxm3Jz_Q

Not surprised by this, the blockade was bound to do something to get media attention eventually. It seems the aid organization was baiting the Israelis more or less peacefully to draw attention to the blockade -- unless the possibly (depending on the source) tear gassed/flash banged people with sticks and knives posed a real threat to Israeli commandos as they claim. :)

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9648 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  05:47:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've been waiting to see comments on this.

The Israeli fleet attacked, and boarded, ships on international water, like pirates. This is a clear violation of international law. If the world community doesn't react soon, we'll be in trouble.

USA have indiscriminately been swinging its ugly military dick around violating international law, so why shouldn't Israel? I mean, USA have always backed them up.
If they can be allowed to do as they please, why can't Sweden? Or Switzerland? Next in line is Germany, Iran, North Korea, and China.

It'll will be anachy on the seas again.

If my ship had been boarded on international waters, I'd think I would have defended it. Yet the Israeli governmental criminals treated the passengers on those ships as if they were the criminal. The irony is staggering.
Too bad not enough israeli soldiers weren't killed, they had no business being there.
On the other hand, the dead civilians' blood are on their hands. Most passengers on the ship made none-violent resistance.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9648 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  07:30:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know violence doesn't really solve the underlying issues, but sometimes it's gratifying to see the big bullies get tweaked on the nose.
Wether it's Israel today getting a lot of diplomatic flak for the shit in Gaza, or the American military occupational force loosing personel in Iraq, who had no business being there in the first place.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13377 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  08:27:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

I've been waiting to see comments on this.

The Israeli fleet attacked, and boarded, ships on international water, like pirates. This is a clear violation of international law. If the world community doesn't react soon, we'll be in trouble.

USA have indiscriminately been swinging its ugly military dick around violating international law, so why shouldn't Israel? I mean, USA have always backed them up.
If they can be allowed to do as they please, why can't Sweden? Or Switzerland? Next in line is Germany, Iran, North Korea, and China.

It'll will be anachy on the seas again.

If my ship had been boarded on international waters, I'd think I would have defended it. Yet the Israeli governmental criminals treated the passengers on those ships as if they were the criminal. The irony is staggering.
Too bad not enough israeli soldiers weren't killed, they had no business being there.
On the other hand, the dead civilians' blood are on their hands. Most passengers on the ship made none-violent resistance.


While I oppose the blockade on Gaza, to over simplify what happened doesn't really do anyone a service or clarify the situation.

The people on boat that Israel boarded and were attacked on were not peace activists or innocent of only trying to bring aid to Gaza. By all accounts, and I have looked into this, they were provocateurs with the goal of embarrassing Israel. Now, don't get me wrong. Given the situation in Gaza, creating an incident like this one seemed to be the intent of this group and might have been a smart move. It seems to have worked.

Let me be clear about this. I do not support the blockade of Gaza. But it seems likely that Israel walked into a PR trap that was planned.




Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5309 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  09:05:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Provocateurs? Source? What does that mean to be a provocateur on a ship in international waters? Were they yelling stuff at Israel?

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The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  09:16:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They announced their intent to test the blockade. That indicates their intent to provoke an incident.

Israel is way over the line with their response, and there is no justification for their actions, but as Kil said... they were intentionally provoked.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5309 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  09:25:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kil's choice of words suggest that they "provoked" an incident. No, they were protesting the blockade. That is not provoking an illegal act. That is protesting illegal acts.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13377 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  09:40:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Gorgo

Kil's choice of words suggest that they "provoked" an incident. No, they were protesting the blockade. That is not provoking an illegal act. That is protesting illegal acts.
Protesting the blockade by directly challenging it was a provocation. It's a tried and true method of protest. It's nothing new. Why you have a problem with the use of that word, I don't know.

The idea was to provoke a response. Gandhi used that method of protest often...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5309 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  09:47:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Originally posted by Gorgo

Kil's choice of words suggest that they "provoked" an incident. No, they were protesting the blockade. That is not provoking an illegal act. That is protesting illegal acts.
Protesting the blockade by directly challenging it was a provocation. It's a tried and true method of protest. It's nothing new. Why you have a problem with the use of that word, I don't know.

The idea was to provoke a response. Gandhi used that method of protest often...



Provoke has a certain connotation in this context. It's saying that they asked to be shot at. It's also irrelevant. They were clearly not carrying arms. They were there to break the blockade. So what? Had Iran boarded a ship of protestors and shot it up that would be excuse for wiping Iran off the map.

They were not pacifists, no. At least some of them. But none of that is provocation for this kind of attack.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5309 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  09:55:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Provoke : provide the needed stimulus for

Provocateur makes it sound more sinister. Like an Agent Provocateur.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5309 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  09:57:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And besides that, Kil, just because they were protesting does not mean that they did not want to bring humanitarian aid to Gaza.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 06/03/2010 11:35:51
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9648 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  12:06:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was a small armada of ships sailing together, loaded with different provisions for the people of Gaza. Humanitarian aid. There's also a cargoship that sailed from Ireland, scheduled to arrive in Gaza on Friday or saturday. Also loaded with necessities for life. Like concrete to rebuild houses that Israel's bombing ground to dust (in an illegal attack on civilians). The Israeli military machine is a murdering one, and has to be opposed.
Hamas was democratically elected, Israel may bitch about it, but there it is. If they hadn't terrorised the Palestinians the way they did, the political situation would have been very different.

(edited some grammar)

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 06/03/2010 12:26:47
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  12:44:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What a stupid response and Israel has made other stupid responses when provoked in the past. When will they learn?
Originally posted by Gorgo

And besides that, Kil, just because they were protesting does not mean that they did not want to bring humanitarian aid to Gaza.

...or guns and munitions. Which is why they were stopped.
I believe other ships were diverted and inspected without incident of death. There would have been no loss of life had the captain obeyed the order to divert before the boarding. I don't believe for a second that the protesters didn't fire first. When you shoot at a soldier they shoot back, guaranteed. Clearly a provocation.

Without addressing the legality of the blockade, it has been in place for sometime and it can be argued that Israel has the right under international law to stop any vessel attempting to run one.
As is the case with any navy enforcing a blockade. That is internationally agreed upon, understood and accepted. SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13377 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  13:35:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gorgo:
Provoke has a certain connotation in this context. It's saying that they asked to be shot at.


Gorgo. How effective would their protest have been if they didn't get the Israeli solders to over react? This might be mind-boggling to you, I dunno, but I think that's exactly what they wanted.

I'm not defending what Israel did here, mind you. But their over reaction couldn't have been a bigger gift to Hamas.

You know what's funny? On facebook I am arguing with a Zionist over Israel's policy toward Gaza. And here, I'm pointing out that Israel fell into a trap. Perhaps a well deserved trap. I seem to be arguing with people who see everything in black and white. Both sides argue that the side they support would never ever stoop to any kind of deception for political gain. That's just naive thinking.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5309 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  14:32:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul
Without addressing the legality of the blockade, it has been in place for sometime and it can be argued that Israel has the right under international law to stop any vessel attempting to run one.
As is the case with any navy enforcing a blockade. That is internationally agreed upon, understood and accepted. SS


Without addressing the legality of it, it's legal? No. It's a crime.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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dglas
Skeptic Friend

Canada
397 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  16:34:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dglas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I see two peoples determined to kill each other, and other interests that are helping them do just that.

Nothing more. I do not take sides.

--------------------------------------------------
- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
--------------------------------------------------
The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
--------------------------------------------------
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