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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 11:00:07 [Permalink]
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The Atheist Blogger looked into this matter and, citing the Adherents.com article, concluded that the statistics used on both sides are murky and unreliable. He recommends avoiding the argument altogether.
However, Rod Swift did post in the comments to defend his data: I am *the* Rod Swift who originally wrote to the US authorities (in response to a claim by a fundamentalist) that atheists were more likely (proportionally) to be overrepresented in prison populations.
This URL has a more interesting take on how the Christians have been skewing the data. The Christians who tried to deride the figures provided to me lumped all the atheists in with the 'no answers' (assuming all no answers were 'atheists' or 'areligious -- a statistical error) to come up with the astounding claim that atheists are over-represented in prison populations.
Indeed, the UK Home Office report could be interpreted the same way, but it does actually state the atheist population, at paragraph 17:
"17. [...] Inmates with No religion formed an important minority at around 30% of the total population. Only 1% of these were Agnostics and Atheists. The remainder had no stated religious affiliation."
This aligns with the 0.2% rate from the email I received in the 90's about the US prison population.
So it looks like the UK Home Office report, when you drill it down to people who identify as atheists/agnostic, supports the notion that those with a firm *non*-belief are under-represented in prisons as compared with the proportion of the total population of atheists in UK society. |
The URL Rod provided links to this Happy Jihad's House of Pancakes article, which concludes: | If you add the two groups in bold together ("atheists" and "no response"), you come up with the imaginary group that my tediously incompetent cocksucking friends at adherents.com use to make the claim that atheists are disproportionately represented in American jails. I would be fine with this if these dishonest whiffs of flatus hadn't effectively multiplied the number of atheists by a factor of almost 100! |
So for now I consider the conclusions of adherents.com very suspect, to say the least.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 13:15:56 [Permalink]
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Probably the most important part of the Adherents.com conclusions is this:Attempts to "prove" either simplistic statement: "Religion leads to incarceration" or "Religion prevents incarceration" are polemical in nature and are neither academic in their approach nor statistially supportable. Neither statement is completely true, and both statements ignore the extremely large differences between religions. Each religious affiliation exhibits different statistical properties relating to incarceration. The actual situation in America can no more be summed up by a discussion of "atheists in prison vs. non-atheists in prison" than by analysis of "Buddhists in prison vs. non-Buddhists in prison." And then what they do is accept that a teensy percentage of prisoners are atheist, but point out that it's actually only a teensy percentage of the general population who claim to be atheists, also. The "8-16%" figures, the site claims, includes agnostics, the simply non-religious and "others." They conclude that the difference between 0.209% and 0.5% might be statistically significant, but it's not the whopping huge difference that certain atheists claim.
Those parts of their argument seem well-supported and well-argued. They go off the rails on the question of whether gay men are more likely to be pedophiles, which has nothing to do with the atheists-in-prison argument. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2010 : 13:40:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Probably the most important part of the Adherents.com conclusions is this:| Attempts to "prove" either simplistic statement: "Religion leads to incarceration" or "Religion prevents incarceration" are polemical in nature and are neither academic in their approach nor statistially supportable. |
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Then they are ignoring Rod's reason for posting the statistics in the first place: | Indeed, the original context of my post stated that atheists were statistically far less likely to be criminals and that the claims of Christians that they are solely subscribants to the best morality (due to their theism) is wrong. |
In other words, the original question wasn't "does religion lead to incarceration?" but "does atheism?" So the assertion the stats were meant to answer was "atheism leads to greater immorality, which in turn should lead to greater instances of criminality." The adherents.com article seems mostly to concern itself with the defending of religion, but needlessly so, since these statistics were never presented as an attack on religion to begin with. The stats were a part of a counterargument against allegations of atheist immorality.
| The "8-16%" figures, the site claims, includes agnostics, the simply non-religious and "others." |
Which is essentially dishonest, since both "non-religious" and "other" could still mean "spiritual" while those who refused to answer could be anything. Adherents.com doesn't want to claim them in the religion category because he's defending religion, which is fine, but he shouldn't stick them in the atheist category either.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/03/2010 14:03:37 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 14:11:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
In other words, the original question wasn't "does religion lead to incarceration?" but "does atheism?" So the assertion the stats were meant to answer was "atheism leads to greater immorality, which in turn should lead to greater instances of criminality." The adherents.com article seems mostly to concern itself with the defending of religion, but needlessly so, since these statistics were never presented as an attack on religion to begin with. The stats were a part of a counterargument against allegations of atheist immorality. |
I think the statement "atheism leads to incarceration" (or its opposite) is just as simplistic as the assertions the article discusses. The basis of all four of these assertions is a simple comparison of atheists and theists in jail and in the general population, so the same stats "answer" the same questions.| The "8-16%" figures, the site claims, includes agnostics, the simply non-religious and "others." |
Which is essentially dishonest, since both "non-religious" and "other" could still mean "spiritual" while those who refused to answer could be anything. |
That's the whole point: claiming that 8-16% of the general population is "atheist" when the numbers could very well include newage spiritualists and non-responders is essentially dishonest. The best stats that the Adherents.com folks could come up with is a solid 0.5% of the general population being verifiable atheists. Compare with 0.209% of the prison population. Is the difference in those two number statistically significant? If not, then atheism doesn't correlate with lower (or higher) incarceration rates. (And so, neither does theism.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 19:53:15 [Permalink]
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I gave the site a quick read and I see they are posting/presenting figures in a dishonest way, in support of their delusions beliefs. If their position as based on sound data, which can be had, then there is no need to rely with hand waving, deception in statistics presentation or outright misrepresentation of the facts being using. You can't debate a dishonest player. You'll never get past their false beliefs because they can't get by them themselves. It's a waste of YOUR time. As long as anyone wants to hold a belief at all costs, NO amount of real solid facts or talking will change their mind. I just don't find any reward in trying to convince a deluded person, their deluded. Especially when their methods are dishonest. For me, to engage after deception is used is validating bad behavior. I'll leave that to others here and elsewhere, if they choose to.
This article will convey the futility of anyone trying to convince any deluded person, who will not accept reality. I must be sick because I still think this is funny but realize it's not, it sad and shadows of these men pass through here. Why do theist try to argue with atheists in a dishonest way? Because it makes them right in their delusion, the act vindicates their beliefs in their mind, I guess. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2010 : 07:54:53 [Permalink]
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And now Mariano has a new article where he does it again, this time he has dipshit dan cheering him on.
The article is on Mariano's page, titled New Atheist in the Park — by Backwoods Boom Town Productions
www.truefreethinker.com/articles/new-atheist-park-%E2%80%94-backwoods-boom-town-productions
The link won't work; the characters don't all work.
EDIT: Got it now, just had to use the URL he gives at the bottom...
There's only one way to reply to that.
Ok, two ways:
www.truefreethinker.com/articles/new-atheist-park-%E2%80%94-backwoods-boom-town-productions#comment-944.
On the bright side, Mariano has admitted that christianity is not a religion, so I assume that they'll give up all their tax breaks.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 07/12/2010 18:30:15 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2010 : 17:18:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
| And it's not a good reason :) |
Well, it depends on the point being made. I think it's a good illustration that religious belief is a totally useless metric for gauging morality. |
I meant it's not a good reason for rejecting atheism. Even if atheists were more commonly "bad" people, it wouldn't make theism better necessarily. Assuming truth, or at least valid argument for truth, is the consideration in evaluating belief systems, it's completely irrelevant.
One could make the argument religion is necessary to keep people in line (though I personally don't even care if it's true), but they aren't making that argument.
We also shouldn't necessarily equate evil-doer with incarcerated person. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2010 : 08:35:10 [Permalink]
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Well, speaking of our old friend Mariano, not only does that clown believe that atheists don't have a reason to be moral, but he actually seems to hate us: I found his essay about atheism on the Creation Ministries International website.
Holy shit, what a load of bigoted bilge.
For one thing, can you spot the fallacy here:
| In atheism, when we die we end up as mere fertilizer; plant food. Human life has no particular meaning or purpose and there is no real basis for ethics, love or even logical thought. Atheism provides no footing for a just, caring and secure society. |
It figures that the same jerks who emply Johnathon Safarti would also find a spot for Mariano.
By the way, "atheism" has "no basis for logical thought"? WTF??? |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2010 : 09:15:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Well, speaking of our old friend Mariano, not only does that clown believe that atheists don't have a reason to be moral, but he actually seems to hate us: I found his essay about atheism on the Creation Ministries International website.
Holy shit, what a load of bigoted bilge.
For one thing, can you spot the fallacy here:
| In atheism, when we die we end up as mere fertilizer; plant food. Human life has no particular meaning or purpose and there is no real basis for ethics, love or even logical thought. Atheism provides no footing for a just, caring and secure society. |
It figures that the same jerks who emply Johnathon Safarti would also find a spot for Mariano.
By the way, "atheism" has "no basis for logical thought"? WTF???
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Here is what pisses me off sooooo much. Why the fuck does human life HAVE to have some ultimate cosmic purpose? I don't fucking get it? I make my own purpose....and today that purpose is to nail as many hot chicks as I possibly can. Tomorrow it might be to eat as many burritos as I can before I die. What the fuck? What do theists want their purpose to be? Why can't they just accept that their ultimate purpose it to return the carbon that they borrowed for their lifetime back to the Earth?
End Rant. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2010 : 10:44:41 [Permalink]
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Whoa! Down boy!
Well Rock you can always join my latest "LRonism" I call Hermitology, It's only requirements are avoiding assholes and watching the occasional Barry Sanders video(Poor Buccaneers) |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2010 : 10:56:13 [Permalink]
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Filthy had it here:
| Another mook who thinks he knows atheism inside & out, yet knows squat beyond his own conceptions and misconceptions. He relies heavily upon ancedote, which might or might not be of his own devising. And a fair amount of hand-waving as well. |
This explains why Mariano is the writer about atheism for Creation Ministries International (the former Aussie branch of Answers in Genesis). |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2010 : 11:18:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Here is what pisses me off sooooo much. Why the fuck does human life HAVE to have some ultimate cosmic purpose? I don't fucking get it? I make my own purpose....and today that purpose is to nail as many hot chicks as I possibly can. Tomorrow it might be to eat as many burritos as I can before I die. What the fuck? What do theists want their purpose to be? Why can't they just accept that their ultimate purpose it to return the carbon that they borrowed for their lifetime back to the Earth?
End Rant.
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What's the purpose of an atheist's life? If any existence is without purpose it's a theist's. Think about it. Just what is their stated purpose? To get to heaven. Everything they go through, everything they think, say and do, is done with that goal in mind, get to heaven. So when they get there they can give praise and adoration to some maniacal skitzoid delusion, for all eternity. Talk about living a life without purpose. Your whole life chasing a illusion. Like someone dying in the desert from thirst. Crawling in the wrong direction to that "nothing" they're never going to reach. The only good part is when they don't get there, their dead and won't know it. Look! a bird, hummm, what's it's purpose? SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2010 : 11:24:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Here is what pisses me off sooooo much. Why the fuck does human life HAVE to have some ultimate cosmic purpose? I don't fucking get it? I make my own purpose....and today that purpose is to nail as many hot chicks as I possibly can. Tomorrow it might be to eat as many burritos as I can before I die. What the fuck? What do theists want their purpose to be? Why can't they just accept that their ultimate purpose it to return the carbon that they borrowed for their lifetime back to the Earth?
End Rant.
|
What's the purpose of an atheist's life? If any existence is without purpose it's a theist's. Think about it. Just what is their stated purpose? To get to heaven. Everything they go through, everything they think, say and do, is done with that goal in mind, get to heaven. So when they get there they can give praise and adoration to some maniacal skitzoid delusion, for all eternity. Talk about living a life without purpose. Your whole life chasing a illusion. Like someone dying in the desert from thirst. Crawling in the wrong direction to that "nothing" they're never going to reach. The only good part is when they don't get there, their dead and won't know it. Look! a bird, hummm, what's it's purpose? SS
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Yeah, I feel sorry for them......NOT!
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Mariano’s at it again
