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 Burning the Koran: how stupid is this?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2010 :  03:28:21  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wait a minute.... There might be a tentative solution to the Christian/Muslim hassle, here.

See, what these morons are planning to do is burn a batch of Korans on the anniversary of 9/11. The Muslims are, understandably, less than thrilled about it. Neither are some Christians.
Florida church’s ‘Burn a Koran Day’ brings Islamist threats

Muslim advocacy groups and evangelical Christian organizations alike have condemned the Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Florida, for its plans to commemorate the ninth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks with a day for burning Islam's holy book. And at least one jihadist organization has promised revenge if the event goes ahead as planned.

"On September 11th, 2010, from 6pm - 9pm, we will burn the Koran on the property of Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, FL in remembrance of the fallen victims of 9/11 and to stand against the evil of Islam," says the church's Facebook page. "Islam is of the devil!"


This is, of course, no more than thwacking the hornet's nest. They're just trying, and at least somewhat succeeding, to piss off the Muslims.

They, both sides, are going about it in the wrong manner. I mean, one good book-burning certainly deserves another, yes, so on the set date, the Muslims should scrounge up a big pile of Bibles and burn them simultaneously. They could do it on the same property and turn it into a party with beer and blackjack and hookers wiener roasts (pork and beef wieners, of course) and the nauseating grilled chicken that is usually to be found at such functions. It could be a friendly competition, the team immolating the most holy books receiving a prize. They could even invite the Jews and make it a three-way; an Abrahamic orgy of text-torching.

Naw, won't work. Seems this church is something of a Fred-Phelpsian outfit that is currently suffering profiteering accusations from former members. They'd just screw it up.
The church has also stirred controversy with its plans to protest Gainesville Mayor Craig Lowe, who is openly gay. And some former church members have accused the leadership of using the church's tax-exempt status for profit.

Ah well and alas, the Bible/Koran burning could have been a hoot.... But we can dream, can't we?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2010 :  07:06:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Saw an interview with this pastor. He uses the same arguments as the Blasphemy day and draw Mohammed people do. His reasoning is fairly sound. And his dissonance is striking. But rather this than all the various cults siding with the fatwas due to religious piety like they did with Rushdie
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2010 :  10:12:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have no problem with him burning whatever he wants to burn.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2010 :  16:50:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dude.....

I have no problem with him burning whatever he wants to burn.
Would you have a problem with a burning of several thousand copies out of school libraries of On the Origin of Species?

My point being that any book burning is an act of sophomoric stupidity, whether the intent is to make a political statement that arouses the elemental anger of a group of insane religious zealots; or merely to reassure the insecurity that the witless followers of the power brokers who front most religious organizations have concerning the certitude of their convictions.

Personally, I would have no problem with enforced pre-frontal lobotomies to be mandated for all of these loonies.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2010 :  19:39:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

Would you have a problem with a burning of several thousand copies out of school libraries of On the Origin of Species?
I wouldn't have a problem with it, so long as they were paid for. Origin, after all, is free for everyone to read on the Web and elsewhere. The idea of a book isn't nearly as important now as it once was. Burning books is now, generally, a victimless offense. Of course, that robs it of its power as a political statement: millions of people would look at an Origin book-burning, say "meh," and go back to reading it on their Kindles, iPads and even in book form.

The political power is reserved for books that are, in any form, revered as holy or are in short supply. Origin is holy only to freaks. Regular folks who understand what's in the book know that it's full of error as well as insight. Buring Origin shouldn't have any more of an effect on anyone than burning a Bible has on atheists. Ho-hum.

On the other hand, I've never seen a copy of Ralph Steadman's Paranoids other than the one I own, so if someone tried to burn it I'd fight pretty hard for its safety. Not because I'd be against whatever political message was being put forth by burning it, but only because I don't know where I'd find anoth... nevermind. I can get a used copy for $15.83 on Amazon.
My point being that any book burning is an act of sophomoric stupidity, whether the intent is to make a political statement that arouses the elemental anger of a group of insane religious zealots...
That was the "problem" with Everybody Draw Mohammed Day, and look what happened: nothing at all.
...or merely to reassure the insecurity that the witless followers of the power brokers who front most religious organizations have concerning the certitude of their convictions.
They'll do that whether they burn books or not.
Personally, I would have no problem with enforced pre-frontal lobotomies to be mandated for all of these loonies.
Yeah, just forget about the First Amendment.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2010 :  21:59:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

Dude.....

I have no problem with him burning whatever he wants to burn.
Would you have a problem with a burning of several thousand copies out of school libraries of On the Origin of Species?

My point being that any book burning is an act of sophomoric stupidity, whether the intent is to make a political statement that arouses the elemental anger of a group of insane religious zealots; or merely to reassure the insecurity that the witless followers of the power brokers who front most religious organizations have concerning the certitude of their convictions.

Personally, I would have no problem with enforced pre-frontal lobotomies to be mandated for all of these loonies.

He can burn whatever he wants to burn (implied here is that it is something he is allowed to legally burn, stolen property would not satisfy that requirement).

I personally find the destruction of any book offensive, but if this moron goes and buys himself a stack of books he can put them to whatever use he chooses, including burning, and I think we would be out of line to demand he not do it or be punished for it. We can, obviously, criticize his stupidity for doing it though.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2010 :  22:23:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

Dude.....

I have no problem with him burning whatever he wants to burn.
Would you have a problem with a burning of several thousand copies out of school libraries of On the Origin of Species?
What's the point of adding "out of school libraries?" All it forces people to do is needlessly explain "Ok, no. I don't approve of burning books stolen from school libraries. But I approve if the book is their own property." Adding an emotionally-charged "think of the children!" red herring into your hypothetical is totally stupid and pointless. Watch, I'll demonstrate:

My point being that any book burning is an act of sophomoric stupidity...
Really? So you wouldn't burn a telephone directory even if it was infested with smallpox and was about to come in contact with sick refugee children? For shame, putting books over children's lives like that.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/02/2010 22:29:15
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2010 :  23:20:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave.....

Origin is holy only to freaks.
As is the Koran.

I seriously doubt that a Darwin devotee would react to a book burning of Origins with the savagery that unhinged Muslim extremists would probably display in response to a similar defilement of the Koran. So as a political statement, one would be successful, the other not.
That was the "problem" with Everybody Draw Mohammed Day, and look what happened: nothing at all.
Yeah, but look at the Salman Rushdie and Theo Van Gogh fatwas, which really caused some consternation.

But at best, the primitive symbolism of book burning, effigy immolation, image defilement, or swastika graffiti and the like is as simplistic an act of aggression and ego expression as a dog peeing on a lamp post. Also about as effective. Those engaging in or reacting to such actions certainly brand themselves as preadamite in sophistication.
On the other hand, I've never seen a copy of Ralph Steadman's Paranoids other than the one I own,
I don't have a copy of Steadman's Paranoids, but I do have his illustrated version of Alice in Wonderland. Steadman's vision of Dodgson's wild imaginings is fascinating to compare to the prim, pedantic drawings of Sir John Tenniel. I think that Steadman's gonzo illustrations of Hunter Thompson's work, particularly Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, define Thompson's prose as strongly as the writing itself.
Edited by - bngbuck on 08/03/2010 00:04:50
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2010 :  23:45:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Humbert.....

What's the point of adding "out of school libraries?"
To point up that virtual book burning of this exact nature is actually taking place in the state of Texas. Do you feel it is "stupid and pointless" to strongly disagree with that?
So you wouldn't burn a telephone directory even if it was infested with smallpox and was about to come in contact with sick refugee children? For shame, putting books over children's lives like that.
Well, that was a monumental stretch, but yes, I would not burn (or touch) an "smallpox infested telephone directory about to come in contact with sick refugee children" You left out "starving, homeless, hungry, and abused" in your stupid and pointless hypothetical.

I would refer your variola virus infected phonebook to a Hazmat Control Unit who had the proper equipment to disinfect and destroy it. Burning it would be problematical as to complete disinfection and actually might put some airborne viruses into the atmosphere besides subjecting myself to possible infection.

For shame, dreaming up such an idiotic hypothetical piece of nonsense!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2010 :  00:57:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

Humbert.....

What's the point of adding "out of school libraries?"
To point up that virtual book burning of this exact nature is actually taking place in the state of Texas.
Point up? I'm not familiar that idiom. And what's a "virtual book burning of this exact nature actually taking place in the state of Texas?" Are you talking about an actual book burning taking place somewhere in Texas or a virtual one? The Koran burning is going to be in Florida. And where do school libraries come into it? I sorry, I have pretty much no idea what that sentence is supposed to mean other than you thought it somehow answered my question.

Do you feel it is "stupid and pointless" to strongly disagree with that?
Disagree with what? Virtual book burnings? Yes, I guess I do think it's stupid and pointless to opposing virtual book burnings.


So you wouldn't burn a telephone directory even if it was infested with smallpox and was about to come in contact with sick refugee children? For shame, putting books over children's lives like that.
Well, that was a monumental stretch, but yes, I would not burn (or touch) an "smallpox infested telephone directory about to come in contact with sick refugee children" You left out "starving, homeless, hungry, and abused" in your stupid and pointless hypothetical.

I would refer your variola virus infected phonebook to a Hazmat Control Unit who had the proper equipment to disinfect and destroy it. Burning it would be problematical as to complete disinfection and actually might put some airborne viruses into the atmosphere besides subjecting myself to possible infection.
Nope, that wasn't one of the options. It's my hypothetical. You don't get to change it. It's burn a book or let children die. Your call.

For shame, dreaming up such an idiotic hypothetical piece of nonsense!
Can I at least hope I made my point?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2010 :  09:16:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Humbert.....

Point up? I'm not familiar that idiom.
I regret your limited erudition.
Disagree with what?
The widely publicized Texas school book mandate to include creationism in science textbooks. Kanawha County in 1976 and action recently (May 2010) in Austin by the Texas Board of Education.
Are you talking about an actual book burning taking place somewhere in Texas or a virtual one?
A virtual one. That's why I used the word "virtual"
I sorry, I have pretty much no idea what that sentence is supposed to mean other than you thought it somehow answered my question.
Don't be sorry Hum, I'm the one that's sorry that I spoke beyond your reach.
Nope, that wasn't one of the options.
Well, I appreciate your offer to define my options for me, but I would prefer to define my own, thank you.
Can I at least hope I made my point?
You can certainly hope. It would help a great deal if I knew what it was.
Edited by - bngbuck on 08/03/2010 09:25:27
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2010 :  10:00:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck
A virtual one. That's why I used the word "virtual"
And you also used the word "actual," thus the incoherence of your statement.

Well, I appreciate your offer to define my options for me, but I would prefer to define my own, thank you.
Ah. But when you create a hypothetical, you get to limit other people's options to books taken from "a school library." Nice double standard.

You can certainly hope. It would help a great deal if I knew what it was.
Yeah, I figured as much. Oh, well. I suppose face-saving dictates that you pretend you had a salient point all along. Fortunately your comprehension isn't really required, anyway. Your post still serves as a great example of a bad, emotionally-manipulative style of argumentation that skeptics would be wise to avoid.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/03/2010 11:35:27
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2010 :  11:27:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

The widely publicized Texas school book mandate to include creationism in science textbooks. Kanawha County in 1976 and action recently (May 2010) in Austin by the Texas Board of Education.
Yeah, but poor or even damaging pedagogy is not analogous to a book-burning. One doesn't need to burn books to teach kids wrong stuff.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2010 :  11:38:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Can't they burn something like Cosmopolitan instead. I get suckered in every time with the promise of learning "101 ways to better orgasms" just to find out they are the same lame tricks they published last month. I hate that magazine.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2010 :  11:44:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
Yeah, but poor or even damaging pedagogy is not analogous to a book-burning. One doesn't need to burn books to teach kids wrong stuff.
Unfortunately it looks like bngbuck is going to dig in his heels and waste everyone's time rather than own up to making a bad argument. We've seen this before. I expect several long posts him up, stuffed with dictionary citations and the parsing of various terms, all of which will drift further and further from the original topic. Months from now he'll bring up this discussion and bait me with his alleged victory. I'm just not interested. I made my point, I think, and am content to let him gurgle on harmlessly.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2010 :  12:09:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

But at best, the primitive symbolism of book burning, effigy immolation, image defilement, or swastika graffiti and the like is as simplistic an act of aggression and ego expression as a dog peeing on a lamp post. Also about as effective. Those engaging in or reacting to such actions certainly brand themselves as preadamite in sophistication.
Doesn't mean that they deserve lobotomizing.

I thought that Crackergate was pretty effective in that it prompted some loons among both theists and atheists to break cover and show their real selves.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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