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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2010 : 12:36:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Petraeus condemns church's plan to burn Korans
"It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems," Petraeus, the top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan, said in a statement. "Not just here, but everywhere in the world we are engaged with the Islamic community."
The U.S. Embassy in Afghanistan also condemned the Florida church's plan, saying the Obama administration opposes "acts of disrespect" against Islam.
Petraeus's comments come a day after 500 residents protested at a Kabul mosque, burning American flags and chanting anti-U.S. slogans. |
This isn't funny anymore. There are a lot of Muslim countries we have decent relations with right now, and Obama has been trying to do damage control so that the US isn't just seen as anti Islam. This Jones guy, besides being bat-shit crazy, will also get people killed.
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Aw & con-trary, this guy is very funny if your sense of humor is black enough (mine is a shade darker than La Brea Midnight). It is wonderful study in microcosm of the human condition that has been in place at least since the first Cro Mangon clove the skull of a Neandertal for no better reason that he (she?) was different, and brains are tasty. Life goes on, eh? We look, we laugh, and sometimes we cry out in anguish.
A thought just occurred: I wonder if this scabby, little church, which is getting attention far beyond it's merits, has any Klan affiliations.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2010 : 13:10:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Petraeus condemns church's plan to burn Korans
"It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems," Petraeus, the top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan, said in a statement. "Not just here, but everywhere in the world we are engaged with the Islamic community."
The U.S. Embassy in Afghanistan also condemned the Florida church's plan, saying the Obama administration opposes "acts of disrespect" against Islam.
Petraeus's comments come a day after 500 residents protested at a Kabul mosque, burning American flags and chanting anti-U.S. slogans. |
This isn't funny anymore. There are a lot of Muslim countries we have decent relations with right now, and Obama has been trying to do damage control so that the US isn't just seen as anti Islam. This Jones guy, besides being bat-shit crazy, will also get people killed.
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You are having some cause-effect problems there Kil. No one burning a stupid ass book is going to get anyone else killed (unless they are too close to the fire).
And really, who fucking cares if it pisses off some muslims? I am not interested in having my speech restricted for fear of reprisal from some fucking illiterate, primitive, stupid, assholes who are "offended".
I am unwilling to sacrifice my freedom of speech to protect the feelings of anyone. Nor should any of us. There is no such thing as a right to not be offended. If any person, state, or loosely associated group of bronze age religious fundamentalists disagree... then they are diametrically opposed to the most important value we have, and we should not give a rats ass how they will react. If they react with violence, then we defend ourselves in kind.
Even that festering old pussbag Scalia thinks that intentionally provocative and offensive speech is protected.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2010 : 14:11:11 [Permalink]
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Dude:
If any person, state, or loosely associated group of bronze age religious fundamentalists disagree... then they are diametrically opposed to the most important value we have, and we should not give a rats ass how they will react. If they react with violence, then we defend ourselves in kind. |
Protecting our first amendment wasn't my point. I agree that offensive speech should be protected. And it's not fundamentalist muslims I am worried about. I'm worried about out troops and the perception by even moderate muslim countries that the US is anti-Islam rather than simply anti-terrorist. Its a perception problem that we have been trying to fix, coming out of the Bush era. I'm thinking a bit more globally than you are I guess.
Between the ground zero bullshit and this theocratic nut-ball, the cause of fixing much of what Bush and his cronies destroyed could go out the window. This crap empowers the dick-head leadership in Iran, for example. It will push some moderates into the hate America camp. Not exactly what we need right now.
But look. I would defend Jones's right to burn any book he wants to burn on constitutional grounds. By the same token, If a piano were to fall on his head while on his way to the book burning, I think that would be just fine... In fact it would make my day. What he is doing is so grossly irresponsible and bad for US relations that I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA were to take the fucker out if it weren't so obvious. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2010 : 14:49:45 [Permalink]
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If people outside the US are incapable of distinguishing between the actions of private citizens and the US government, and we are incapable of communicating to them that we allow people to hold ideas that not everyone is going to like, that is a problem.
But there is no connection between this retard burning books and his muslim counterpart in Afghanistan taking it out on our troops.
| This crap empowers the dick-head leadership in Iran, for example. It will push some moderates into the hate America camp. Not exactly what we need right now. |
Maybe so, but if it does then they were just looking for an excuse anyway.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2010 : 15:01:04 [Permalink]
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Dude:
But there is no connection between this retard burning books and his muslim counterpart in Afghanistan taking it out on our troops. |
So you think you are in a better position to make that call than General Petraeus is? Okay then... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2010 : 15:41:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Dude:
But there is no connection between this retard burning books and his muslim counterpart in Afghanistan taking it out on our troops. |
So you think you are in a better position to make that call than General Petraeus is? Okay then...
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He is using bad logic. Might this crap upset some people to the point of killing? Sure. But so what? If you are going to come kill me because I disrespect your religion, then there is nothing to really talk about. At some point I'd do something that is offensive to your religion no matter what.
Also, again, threat of violence or death is not a reason to willingly sacrifice my free speech. Hey, Gandhi, you should not sit there quietly because you sitting there is going to make those guys over there come hurt you and these other people sitting with you, because they know you are sitting there quietly to deliberately provoke them.
This is one of those things where there can be no compromise. Too much rests on the right to free speech.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2010 : 15:54:41 [Permalink]
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Dude:
He is using bad logic. |
He's trying to protect his troops in an area where tensions run high. He isn't saying Jone's can't do what he plans to do. He's saying it's a very bad idea. There is no bad logic there.
Dude:
This is one of those things where there can be no compromise. Too much rests on the right to free speech. |
I don't disagree with you. On the other hand, as I said, if a piano were to fall on his head... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2010 : 17:08:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Dude:
He is using bad logic. |
He's trying to protect his troops in an area where tensions run high. He isn't saying Jone's can't do what he plans to do. He's saying it's a very bad idea. There is no bad logic there.
Dude:
This is one of those things where there can be no compromise. Too much rests on the right to free speech. |
I don't disagree with you. On the other hand, as I said, if a piano were to fall on his head...
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It's only a bad idea if you think there is a legitimate causal connection between intentional disrespect and some opium farmer in Afghanistan deciding to shoot a US soldier.
If me offending somebody makes them try to come kill my cousin in NY, they deserve the beatdown they are about to get, not to mention that it makes them an idiot.
There may be a pragmatic concern with the possibility of stupid people acting stupidly in response, but I have to reject that as a legitimate reason to willingly restrict my right to speak. It is predictable and can be dealt with.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2010 : 17:24:37 [Permalink]
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This piece of idotcy continues to expland. Now the Vet's organizations are chiming in (I'm a member of the DAV).
Veterans organization pans church’s ‘selfish’ Quran burning protest
By Agence France-Presse
Tuesday, September 7th, 2010 -- 7:09 pm
A top US veterans group on Tuesday blasted a planned Koran burning to mark nine years since the September 11th strikes as the work of "religious extremists" whose gesture would endanger US forces.
"There is nothing to be gained and everything to lose from this selfish act," said Richard Eubank, leader of the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW), the largest US combat veterans organization with 1.5 million members.
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I'm beginning to agree with Kil. From a personal perspective, I'd like to observe the party first hand -- chaos ever summons me near -- but this is a highly irresponsible act about to be committed by a chronic grand-stander with the ethics of a weasle and the brains of a chicken.
However, I don't think it will make a hell of a lot difference in Afghanistan, where we are already roundly hated. The real damage will be in relations with other Muslim countries.
The best way to protect the troops is to bring them home. Why are we still there, anyway?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2010 : 19:31:19 [Permalink]
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filthy:
Why are we still there, anyway? |
Well. There is that... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2010 : 22:22:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
But there is no connection between this retard burning books and his muslim counterpart in Afghanistan taking it out on our troops.
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True.
The Muslim counterpart is defending his land/country against an imperialist invader. The bookburning retard is just... retarded.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2010 : 01:13:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Dude
But there is no connection between this retard burning books and his muslim counterpart in Afghanistan taking it out on our troops.
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True.
The Muslim counterpart is defending his land/country against an imperialist invader. The bookburning retard is just... retarded.
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See. Here's the thing. I don't think it's of much value for us to be there anymore. Bush and the neocons let the bad guys get away.
But really, Mab. We were viciously attacked by a group that was protected by the government in Afghanistan. Right now we are trying to keep that government from taking power again because unlike our very wrongheaded adventure in Iraq where we really were being imperialists with the idea of a pax amaricana, the Taliban is our enemy. I know you love to hate America, and there really are awful things that our government has done, but going into Afghanistan wasn't one of them unless you actually think it was okay for those jets to be highjacked and thousands of American civilians killed because we deserved it.
Let me ask you. What was our choice after such an attack? When we went to war with Afghanistan we did have much of the world on our side, including many of the muslim countries. Pakistan was still with us. But the neocons fucked all of that up.
The problem now is that no matter what we do there, we will not rid ourselves of either the Taliban or Al-Qaeda because that window has closed. I'm for getting out. But our reason for going there wasn't for some imperialist adventure. That came a few months later... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/08/2010 : 03:51:48 [Permalink]
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Whaddafork is the Dove World Outreach Center?
Well, it has an interesting history that might soon be ending. It won't go out in a blaze of crusader's glory, no, but with mere and mundane financial hassles.
History and structure
It was founded in 1986 by Donald O. Northrup and Richard H. Wright[1], and became known for participating in charitable endeavors.
It also formerly owned a subsidiary church in Waldo, Florida in the 1980s (led by Donald J. Wright) and a sister church in Cologne, Germany, Christliche Gemeinde Köln[2] (CKG), which had been founded and led by Jones, a Missouri native, from 1981-2008 (initially as a branch of Maranatha Ministries), after which the church continued under newer, independent, leadership. It is currently the largest non-Catholic church in the Cologne/Bonn metropolitan area.[citation needed]
The church also maintains a Dove World Outreach Academy in Gainesville, in which students are prohibited from outside contact, and work without compensation in selling, packing, and shipping furniture for TS and Company[3].
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The last part of that smacks a bit of slave labor, but whadda I know? Could be it's entirely voluntary (yeah, right!).
Anyhow, as these things go, the church was pretty innocuous until Jones took it over. He soon got into the Rifqa Bary controversy in Cleveland and gave an endorsement to the scumbags of the Westboro Baptist Church. There is also the business of tee shirts and lawn signs.
And now Jones has managed to foist his religious perversions off upon the world... Hey, you've gotta give him some credit for that! The moron has attracted attention beyond the moist, nocturnal fantasies of many of the most desperate of politicians. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2010 : 09:55:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
See. Here's the thing. I don't think it's of much value for us to be there anymore. Bush and the neocons let the bad guys get away.
But really, Mab. We were viciously attacked by a group that was protected by the government in Afghanistan. |
Yes, I agree, and the offensive against that government and the terror-group had it coming. The UN supported the action, hell, even I thought it was justified.
While not making any judgment one way or another, but just observing, I was unsurprised that some group or another finally took upon themselves to attack USA on home ground. And I can see how they justified it: US foreign policy of swinging its big dick in foreign affairs where it didn't belong. Uncarefully handling rattlesnakes enough times, and sooner or later you'll get bit in the ass (or elsewhere).
| Right now we are trying to keep that government from taking power again because unlike our very wrongheaded adventure in Iraq where we really were being imperialists with the idea of a pax amaricana, the Taliban is our enemy. |
The problem is that the US mission in Afghanistan is very much tainted by the Iraq invasion. Had Bush only focused on completing the mission in Afghanistan and stayed out of Iraq, then even the average Muslim in the Middle East would have accepted and maybe even supported the Afghan campaign. It could have been the single mission, with the single goal of raising Afghanistan from the middle ages into the 20th century (or even the 21st).
The first failure was not putting enough troops on the ground, but rely on criminal warlord-like clans to keep their respective territory in check with firepower, thereby undermining the central government's ability to enforce law and order. After that came a long list of other failures, but that's not for this thread.
I know you love to hate America, and there really are awful things that our government has done, but going into Afghanistan wasn't one of them unless you actually think it was okay for those jets to be highjacked and thousands of American civilians killed because we deserved it. |
I agree with you, Kil: Going into Afghanistan wasn't one of them. Could it have been avoided? Probably with another foreign policy at least as far back as early 80s or even the 70s.
Let me ask you. What was our choice after such an attack? |
Retaliation. And I was fine with that, as long as measures were taken to ensure a minimum of collateral damage. A nuke or two in the mountains would have been over the top (but I wouldn't have been surprised either). Apart from the stupid "those who are not with us are against us"-speech (that was both sad and amusing at the same time from an intellectual point of view)
the start of the campaign was good enough for me to approve.
| When we went to war with Afghanistan we did have much of the world on our side, including many of the muslim countries. Pakistan was still with us. But the neocons fucked all of that up. |
Your motives started out pure enough with the world community if not overtly approving then at least silently consenting.
But suddenly it wasn't a mission of retaliation against Al-Quaida and humanitarian help to bring Afghanistan out of the dark ages, anymore. Poor and innocent farmers living in Pakistanian border-villages saw hellfire missiles rain down on their villagers because the US intelligence wasn't good enough. Just as stupid as when US forces bombed a Chinese Embassy building in Baghdad during the Balkan war; the building was once owned by the Yugoslavian military or some such, but was sold to the Chinese and someone in the US military intelligence forgot to update the ownership change.
| The problem now is that no matter what we do there, we will not rid ourselves of either the Taliban or Al-Qaeda because that window has closed. I'm for getting out. But our reason for going there wasn't for some imperialist adventure. That came a few months later... |
But it doesn't matter that it came a few months later. The damage is already done, the appearance is sticking. Once you've put rank butter in the broth, it's forever spoiled. The simple farmer, who watches the news and listens to his Muslim Imam explain Pax Imperial Americana, will not see what USA set out to do in Afghanistan. All he sees are relatives killed by American weapons (in the hands of American soldiers, or semi-criminal warlords) and hearing that now they are almost done here, almost done in Iraq, have the Pakistanian government in its pocket and is rattling its sword toward Iran and Syria. And that Israel (with USA's consent) is starving out Palestinians in Gaza.
How any other way can this poor and ignorant Afghan man interpret things, than America has come to his country to pillage and rape? What else can he think, other than it's a war against Islam? It's one Islamic country after another... He just sees himself as defending himself and his land. That's his point of view, it's life and death for him, it's either him or the American soldier. Just because Americans has failed, by action, to show why they were there to begin with.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 09/08/2010 10:07:12 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Burning the Koran: how stupid is this?
