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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2010 : 08:53:23 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Where is evidence for a creator? |
Go look in the mirror, look out your window. Watch a hawk floating in the sky. It's all around you if you will just open up your eyes. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2010 : 09:20:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Suicide huh? That was a perspective I had not thought of. |
You're the one who came up with the long jump analogy, which is clearly about getting the most distance in a suicide leap.| But anyway let me help you out here. You beat on your chest and jumped up and down "We are #1, we are #1, we are #1" when it came to scoring on the survey of world religions. I simply put a little perspective of my own on this for you. |
No, you didn't. You compared it to suicide. "A little perspective" is saying that everyone sucks at religious knowledge, but atheists are the least sucky.| You see your bragging about being #1 in what amounts to winning a long jump contest over the Grand Canyon. |
No, it doesn't amount to that, because I'm not dead.| The short sightedness says "I am #1, I am #1, I am #1" while the long term visionary has to ask, what did you really win? |
The long term visionary is thus shown to be an idiot who doesn't understand what a "survey" is, or why this one matters.| So sure the atheist might have scored a little higher on some world religion survey, but in the big picture of the God vs. no god debate and knowing all that there is to know in the comos and beyond, who fricking cares? |
I don't share your nihilism, Bill. The survey results matter in regard to overturning stereotypes that we all have to deal with in the here-and-now of everyday life. The "big picture" in this case is the USA. Trying to switch the context to "the cosmos and beyond" is nothing more than a transparent attempt to avoid the implications of the results.| Go collect your #1 ribbon at the bottom of the canyon where everybody is at. That #1 ribbon and $0.50 will get you a nice cup of coffee. |
If I were as beat-down as you are about the whole "cosmos and beyond" thing, I'd say the same about your faith, Bill. Instead, I'll urge you to seek treatment for your obvious depression. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2010 : 09:29:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Where is evidence for a creator? |
Go look in the mirror, look out your window. Watch a hawk floating in the sky. It's all around you if you will just open up your eyes. |
So far as I can tell, you're simply assuming that there's a creator, and assuming that that creator created everything you see, and you're trying to convince me that they're both true by saying that one is evidence for the other, and vice versa.
Besides which, given that we can't know anything (according to you), looking in the mirror, out a window or at a hawk proves nothing. I have as much true knowledge of mirrors as I do of a creator, making your argument null and void. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2010 : 09:44:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Kil
Bill:
Well it is my belief that the answer is yes but, I will acknowledge, I do not know this. |
So you would agree that knowledge of the existence of God is actually unknowable?
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I would agree, that in our current finite state of being, for many reasons I can believe that God exists, but I cannot know that he exists in empirical terms, just as you might, for many reason, believe that a natural and completely materialistic explanation can be given for the creation we see before us even though this belief you have is actually unknowable as well. |
So even if we conclude, as Stephen Hawking just has, that a God is not required for the existence of the physical universe, it becomes a purely human choice as to whether God had a hand in it or not. Right? And that's the choice you make. You will agree that it is your faith that God does exist and is the first cause, and only your faith because there is no empirical evidence to support your faith. Correct?
And yet you say that we are also going on faith to deny that which is not necessary for the existence of the universe. Right?
But as "materialists" all we are doing is not assuming an additional and unnecessary force, which is by your own admission is conjecture based on faith.
So where is our faith to be found? According to you, our faith is found in the rejection of your faith. Our religion is the rejection of your religion, right? And in that way you can claim that we all go on faith. That's a convoluted argument. And while I will grant you that that empirical evidence for a God, one way or another, is lacking on both sides of the debate, and is therefor unknowable, what compelling reason would we have to throw our faith, either positive or negative, in one direction or the other? Why should we give it any more consideration than any other supernatural claim?
I submit that what you have already agreed to makes you agnostic, which is not a comfortable position for you to take, so you have added to that your faith that there has to be something more, and you are willing to name that something even though you can't support that something in any meaningful way. And as an agnostic/atheist, you have suggested that it takes faith for me to not include what we both agree is unknowable.
I fail to see the logic in making that assertion. There are a lot of assumed Gods out there. Yours is not the only religion. Am I wrong in rejecting as relevant to understanding the universe all of the other religious based conjectures about first cause too? Why do you reject all of the other proposed Gods? I mean, you have as much to go on as I do. Right? As someone once said, and I'l paraphrase, we are very close in our beliefs. You just reject one less God than I do.
Of course, I don't actually reject your God so much as I don't consider God a workable hypothesis. On those grounds, I don't see God as something to reject. God is more like something not worth considering because it adds nothing at all to our knowledge of how the world works...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2010 : 09:58:01 [Permalink]
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Bill:
And here is where kil was trying to point out your short sightedness, Dave. |
No. That's not what I was doing. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2010 : 10:28:19 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| You're the one who came up with the long jump analogy, which is clearly about getting the most distance in a suicide leap. |
While you can't grasp the analogy it is really rather easy to understand. You brag about your 15 jump and shout I am #1 but fail to see you that in the grad scheme of things a 15 ft a grand canyon jump don't amount to jack crap even if it is the winning jump. Kil was politely trying to tell you that being #1 in this survey was sort of like winning the Grand Canyon long jump. It ain't all it's really cracked up to be. Now if you want to keep celebrating your big survey victory in the streets or if you want continue to be confused by your ramblings of suicide than knock yourself out, it's your life.
| No, you didn't. You compared it to suicide. |
Your confused. And let me guess, your the little kid watching Willie E. Coyote on tv cartoons fall to the depths of the canyon with an anvil on his head and then in the next scene while he is chasing the Road Runner again you get up and leave in protest saying Warner Brothers promotes suicide. Geese, I can see why you were never the hit of the party
| "A little perspective" is saying that everyone sucks at religious knowledge, but atheists are the least sucky. |
I basically did when I agreed with Kil that being #1 here didn't mean a whole lot of anything.
| No, it doesn't amount to that, because I'm not dead. |
What about Willie E. Coyote? How did he survive all of those falls?
| The long term visionary is thus shown to be an idiot who doesn't understand what a "survey" is, or why this one matters. |
Go get your blue ribbon, at the bottom of the gorge.
| I don't share your nihilism, Bill. The survey results matter in regard to overturning stereotypes that we all have to deal with in the here-and-now of everyday life. The "big picture" in this case is the USA. Trying to switch the context to "the cosmos and beyond" is nothing more than a transparent attempt to avoid the implications of the results. |
OK so now you have a survey that shows a few random atheists know more about Judaism then some Catholic people. etc... Big fricking deal. And how does this have any relevance on the God vs. no god debate?
| If I were as beat-down as you are about the whole "cosmos and beyond" thing, I'd say the same about your faith, Bill. Instead, I'll urge you to seek treatment for your obvious depression. |
Sorry to rain on your parade, Dave. I know how much you enjoy and how important being #1 is for you regardless of any slow sprint or impossible long jump contests.
| So far as I can tell, you're simply assuming that there's a creator, and assuming that creator created everything you see, and you're trying to convince me that they're both true by saying that one is evidence for the other, and vice versa. |
I am saying that because we already see the creation right in front of own eyes that it is safe and logical to assume that there is a creator if for no other reason.
| Besides which, given that we can't know anything (according to you), looking in the mirror, out a window or at a hawk proves nothing. I have as much true knowledge of mirrors as I do of a creator, making your argument null and void. |
So do you know that there is no God? Do you know this for a fact? What is your true knowledge on mirrors?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2010 : 10:50:27 [Permalink]
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| So even if we conclude, as Stephen Hawking just has, that a God is not required for the existence of the physical universe, it becomes a purely human choice as to whether God had a hand in it or not. Right? And that's the choice you make. You will agree that it is your faith that God does exist and is the first cause, and only your faith because there is no empirical evidence to support your faith. Correct? |
Well first of all it is irrelevant what you, or Hawking, conclude as far as reality. Your simple conclusion don't make it justso And I don't know how to make this any clearer for you. It is simply yours, and Hawking's, belief that no God is required for the existence of the physical universe. You believe this but you do not know this. Hawking, empirically speaking, has no authority to say that no God is required because the hard cold facts are that he does not know this. He has a belief and nothing more. Actually when you take Hawking's finite knowledge in comparison to the infinite cosmos it really is laughable that he even thinks he would be qualified to come to such a conclusion. Just another one willing to brag about his Grand Canyon long jump achievements. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2010 : 13:25:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
What about Willie E. Coyote? How did he survive all of those falls? |
You're using a cartoon to argue that you weren't talking about people jumping to their deaths?  | The long term visionary is thus shown to be an idiot who doesn't understand what a "survey" is, or why this one matters. |
OK so now you have a survey that shows a few random atheists know more about Judaism then some Catholic people. etc... Big fricking deal. |
If you don't care, why did you bother to comment?| And how does this have any relevance on the God vs. no god debate? |
The only person here saying that it has any such relevance is you, Bill. Nobody else said, implied or even hinted that the survey results had anything at all to do with the "God vs. no god debate" except you. And you even said that you had no need to do so, but here we are again, with you obviously feeling a deep need to tie the two together in a completely inappropriate manner. Why?| Sorry to rain on your parade, Dave. I know how much you enjoy and how important being #1 is for you regardless of any slow sprint or impossible long jump contests. |
And since you obviously don't get the point of why the survey is important, you resort to insulting me.| I am saying that because we already see the creation right in front of own eyes that it is safe and logical to assume that there is a creator if for no other reason. |
That assumes that what we see is "the creation." Where is the evidence for that?| So do you know that there is no God? |
Of course not.| Do you know this for a fact? |
Yes, I know for a fact that I do not know that there is no god.| What is your true knowledge on mirrors? |
According to you, nobody has any true knowledge of anything. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2010 : 16:10:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
As far as any truth to be established in the god vs no god debate is concerned that, as you have heard many times before, is more your burden than ours. |
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Where is evidence for a creator? |
Go look in the mirror, look out your window. Watch a hawk floating in the sky. It's all around you if you will just open up your eyes.
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Remember, for Bill, evidence points to whatever you believe it to point to. There is no burden. That doesn't stop him from claiming that the evidence is all around you if you will just open your eyes, however.
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 04:53:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by moakley
What's silly to me is your conflating the results of this poll with the god vs no god debate. The results of the poll simply showed that atheists/agnostics were, on average, able to answer more questions correctly. |
And that was exactly my point. You have just slightly won a survey on world religions. Bravo, yippee!!!! And then I also go on to point out that in the realm of the entire cosmos and all that there is to know your #1 prize is akin to winning the Grand Canyon long jump contest. Sure your #1 but you will soon join the others at the bottom of the canyon.
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My reply was simply matter of fact. There was no celebration in my words since I did not find the results surprising. However, in your response sour grapes were almost palpable. I'm sorry that your fellow godbots let you down.
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by moakley As far as any truth to be established in the god vs no god debate is concerned that, as you have heard many times before, is more your burden than ours. |
My burden? We already have the very creation itself. It's your burden to explain the existence of the creation apart from the creator. Who, other then the creator, brought into existents a creation which previously did not exist?
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You know the creator by his creation, you know the creation had a creator. Nice tautology. You have clearly established the importance of faith.
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Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 10/05/2010 : 08:49:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Bill scott
And that was exactly my point. You have just slightly won a survey on world religions. Bravo, yippee!!!!
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However, in your response sour grapes were almost palpable. I'm sorry that your fellow godbots let you down. |
I don't think it's only his fellows. Put against the rest of the SFN'rs, he wouldn't do much better, I'll wager.
Originally posted by Bill scott
My burden? We already have the very creation itself. It's your burden to explain the existence of the creation apart from the creator. Who, other then the creator, brought into existents a creation which previously did not exist?
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You know the creator by his creation, you know the creation had a creator. Nice tautology. You have clearly established the importance of faith.
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I've already told you! It's Cpt. Marwel !!!
This is why if feels to futile engaging Bill in (almost) any debate where faith plays a part: He's locked to a single railroad track steaming on at full speed without any possibility of changing his mind. His faith doesn't seem permit him to consider viewing something/anything from a non-faith point of view.
All there is, is this circular reasoning, begging the question-fallacy, setting the cart before the ass.
Trying to engaging in a rational discussion with Bill is obviously pointless. The other Christians on the board can be reasoned with, but obstinance of faith is strong in this one. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 12:12:56 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| You're using a cartoon to argue that you weren't talking about people jumping to their deaths? |
No. I was using a cartoon to demonstrate that you are just being obtuse here.
| If you don't care, why did you bother to comment? |
Because you continued to bask in your glory of being #1 in the survey, even when others were trying to steer you straight. I guess your shortsightedness caused me to comment.
| The only person here saying that it has any such relevance is you, Bill. |
But I said it had no relevance. You kept going on and on about how even though the atheist score was nothing to write home about how you were going to continue to crow because the fact was that atheists were #1 and so you were going to chant "We are #1! We are #1! We are #1!" no matter who told you to chill out.
| Nobody else said, implied or even hinted that the survey results had anything at all to do with the "God vs. no god debate" except you. And you even said that you had no need to do so, but here we are again, with you obviously feeling a deep need to tie the two together in a completely inappropriate manner. Why? |
I only said that in the grand scheme of things, which between the theist and the atheist is the God vs. no god debate, that your blue ribbon in the world religion survey amounts to a hill of beans, as far as knowing truth in origins.
| And since you obviously don't get the point of why the survey is important, you resort to insulting me. |
I never said the survey was not important. I said that you were making to big of a deal about it. And important is in the eye of the beholder.
| That assumes that what we see is "the creation." Where is the evidence for that? |
Could what we see be eternal?
| Yes, I know for a fact that I do not know that there is no god. |
Good. And I agree. And neither does Hawking know, nor kill etc... They just do not know this no mater how much they think they do.
| According to you, nobody has any true knowledge of anything. |
I never said that at all. I said, just as you did but, from my theist perspective, that I know for a fact that I do not know that there is a God. You then go from that and start asking about my knowledge of mirrors????? Ah, knowledge of mirrors or knowledge of God, what's the difference, it's apples and apples, right? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 12:46:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
No. I was using a cartoon to demonstrate that you are just being obtuse here. |
Dave isn't obtuse by a long shot compared to you.
| If you don't care, why did you bother to comment? |
Because you continued to bask in your glory of being #1 in the survey, even when others were trying to steer you straight. |
Who are those others?
I only said that in the grand scheme of things, which between the theist and the atheist is the God vs. no god debate, that your blue ribbon in the world religion survey amounts to a hill of beans, as far as knowing truth in origins. |
You have it all wrong.
In the Grand Scheme of things, atheists are laughing at theists for being delusional. As far as the debate of God vs. No God: the debate was over long ago, and the theists are just in a state of denial.
| Yes, I know for a fact that I do not know that there is no god. |
Good. And I agree. And neither does Hawking know, nor kill etc... They just do not know this no mater how much they think they do. |
I think you're confusing things up here. Care to rephrase?
| According to you, nobody has any true knowledge of anything. |
I never said that at all. |
Not in exactly those words, you didn't. But what you said, did imply just that.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 17:00:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
No. I was using a cartoon to demonstrate that you are just being obtuse here. |
You're making analogies with people leaping to their deaths, yet I'm the one being obtuse?| Because you continued to bask in your glory of being #1 in the survey, even when others were trying to steer you straight. I guess your shortsightedness caused me to comment. |
No, it was obviously because you saw "basking in glory" when what was happening wasn't nearly so dramatic.| The only person here saying that it has any such relevance is you, Bill. |
But I said it had no relevance. |
And then you asked me how it was relevant. It isn't, you knew it wasn't, but you asked again anyway.| You kept going on and on about how even though the atheist score was nothing to write home about how you were going to continue to crow because the fact was that atheists were #1 and so you were going to chant "We are #1! We are #1! We are #1!" no matter who told you to chill out. |
I didn't say I would crow about atheists being number 1, I said I would crow about the theists' sucky scores. Besides, that doesn't make the results relevant to "the God vs. no god debate," so again: why did you ask what it's relevance is?| I only said that in the grand scheme of things, which between the theist and the atheist is the God vs. no god debate, that your blue ribbon in the world religion survey amounts to a hill of beans, as far as knowing truth in origins. |
"The grand scheme of things," as regards this particular survey, is not and has never been, "the God vs. no god debate" or anything like "truth in origins." You're trying to mix and orange in with the apples because then you can dismiss the apples as not amounting to "a hill of beans." The proper context is, instead, the public perception of atheism.
What you're doing with your repeatedly bringing up "the God vs. no god debate" and poo-pooing the survey results is like pointing out to people that the winner of a soap-box derby could never win a Grand Prix race. Or better yet, that Obama winning the presidential election doesn't mean anything with regard to the "Out of Africa" theory of human diversity. It doesn't, but nobody ever said it did, so the only reason to link the two is to crank out manufactured dismissive sneers. You might feel justified in your derision, but in reality, you only created a straw man to be dismissive towards.| And since you obviously don't get the point of why the survey is important, you resort to insulting me. |
I never said the survey was not important. |
Sure, that's why you've said it doesn't amount to a hill of beans or that in the "grand scheme of things" it is worthless.| I said that you were making to big of a deal about it. |
It is a big deal, but not in the context you're trying to cram it into. Nobody ever said it was a big deal in some other context, but you keep bringing up that other context as if it's relevant. Do you really not have a relevant argument, and are just doing this to insult me?| And important is in the eye of the beholder. |
Duh.| That assumes that what we see is "the creation." Where is the evidence for that? |
Could what we see be eternal? |
I see no evidence that anything is "eternal," so no. Of course, to claim that because everything had a start, everything was created by God, you'll have to posit that God creates every photon that emits from every lightbulb, and thus that there are no "natural" processes at all, which would demolish free will. Are you a Calvinist?| Yes, I know for a fact that I do not know that there is no god. |
Good. And I agree. And neither does Hawking know, nor kill etc... They just do not know this no mater how much they think they do. |
You're answering the wrong questions on their behalf. Hawking didn't say that he knows there is no god, for example.| According to you, nobody has any true knowledge of anything. |
I never said that at all. I said, just as you did but, from my theist perspective, that I know for a fact that I do not know that there is a God. |
I see that you are unwilling to follow the argumentative chain down to it's logical conclusion in solipsism. Unfortunately for your argument about knowledge, solipsism is where it necessarily begins. Until you figure out how to escape solipsism using something other than faith, you won't be discussing the same things that I am.| You then go from that and start asking about my knowledge of mirrors????? |
Your memory is shot to hell, Bill. You told me to look in a mirror as evidence of the creation. I told you that I have as much knowledge of mirrors as I do that there is a creator. Then you asked me (not the other way around), "What is your true knowledge on mirrors?" You're the one who asked a question about mirrors, not me.| Ah, knowledge of mirrors or knowledge of God, what's the difference, it's apples and apples, right? |
Exactly. If you want to prove to me that what I see when looking in a mirror has a creator, you'll first have to prove to me that mirrors exist. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 17:06:34 [Permalink]
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I found the survey interesting but not extraordinary. I was a little disappointed that other faiths were, for mentioned reasons, not included.
How cool is it that the most knowledgeable turn out to be the ones on either end of the spectrum with our side slightly ahead? Might be that we pay more attention to what we read than those who have faith, say grace at the table, and skip church to go fishing.
I'd liked to have taken that survey. I think I'd have done fairly well on it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
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Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Atheists and agnostics are #1
