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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2010 :  16:49:46  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Frequently I see this post pop up on my Facebook page from random friends.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation, under GOD, indivisible, with LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all! I grew up reciting this every morning in school. We no longer do that for fear of OFFENDING SOMEONE!! Let's see how many Americans will re-post ...this & not care about offending someone. God Bless America! Support our Veterans and soldiers


I have saved a little response that I wrote that I paste whenever I see this.
The Pledge Of Allegience was originally written in 1892. The original line was "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". In 1954 it was modified to add the phrase "under God". Who's God is it they are referring to? Does it include Hindu Gods? Does it include Wiccan Gods and Goddess'? What about atheists who have no God? All of these types of people and many others make up the fabric of this great country of ours.
Adding the phrase "under God" creates division...which is contradictory because the word immediately following it is "indivisible".
So I guess it really comes down to whether you consider people who have a different theological outlook than the Christian God to be citizens or not. It really doesn't matter because legally we are citizens whether Christians think so or not.
By the way...the words "under God" are not offensive to me. The pledge of allegiance is just not the proper place to put them. Thats what churches are for. I will fight to the end to protect your right to worship as you please but to indoctrinate every public school child every morning in their classroom is just plain wrong. Take those two words out and it makes a world of difference.


I kinda feel like a dick when I do it because I don't think the people who normally post it really think about what they are saying. I was told by one of my friends that she was "just being patriotic" when she posted it.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring

The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2010 :  17:24:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've done almost exactly the same thing a few times. But then, I'm Canadian, we're dicks. But lovable! And I see nothing wrong with correcting those who have fallen for a re-writing of history. I'm sure pastor Bellamy would have approved, especially since he believed in separation of church and state. And if memory serves his descendants were not happy about the change that inserted 'under god'.

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2010 :  17:44:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I kinda feel like a dick when I do it because I don't think the people who normally post it really think about what they are saying. I was told by one of my friends that she was "just being patriotic" when she posted it.
No. You are not being a dick.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2010 :  17:45:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

In 1954 it was modified to add the phrase "under God".
You need to add something in there about the reason: to differentiate us from those godless commies in Russia. Add something about quaint notions of patriotism and the horrors of McCarthyism.

And, as The Rat noted, add something about Bellamy. I just learned from Wikipedia that he was a Christian Socialist, which ought to blow some people's minds.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2010 :  17:51:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

In 1954 it was modified to add the phrase "under God".
You need to add something in there about the reason: to differentiate us from those godless commies in Russia. Add something about quaint notions of patriotism and the horrors of McCarthyism.

And, as The Rat noted, add something about Bellamy. I just learned from Wikipedia that he was a Christian Socialist, which ought to blow some people's minds.


Actually I did consider being more detailed when I originally wrote that piece a few months ago but I thought that what I already wrote would go over most people's heads anyway.

I don't know why it is that I always feel a little guilty when I throw that out there.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2010 :  17:57:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I kinda feel like a dick when I do it because I don't think the people who normally post it really think about what they are saying. I was told by one of my friends that she was "just being patriotic" when she posted it.
The fact that people just mindlessly echo such sentiments without thinking about them make it all the more important to speak up. And the way I look at, you're not being a dick because you're not the one who initiated the topic. The "dicks" are those who write these messages with the intention of bullying people into agreeing with them or risk being outed as "unpatriotic." Fuck them. The proper response is exactly the one you gave.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/11/2010 18:04:01
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2010 :  20:10:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think your response was great, just as it was. The patriotism thing could have been brought up, but I think your focus on "under God" was the best way to handle it. With the kind of people who post such screeds as you were replying to, it's hard enough to correct just one misconception at a time.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2010 :  21:25:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Frequently I see this post pop up on my Facebook page from random friends.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation, under GOD, indivisible, with LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all! I grew up reciting this every morning in school. We no longer do that for fear of OFFENDING SOMEONE!! Let's see how many Americans will re-post ...this & not care about offending someone. God Bless America! Support our Veterans and soldiers


I have saved a little response that I wrote that I paste whenever I see this.
The Pledge Of Allegience was originally written in 1892. The original line was "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". In 1954 it was modified to add the phrase "under God". Who's God is it they are referring to? Does it include Hindu Gods? Does it include Wiccan Gods and Goddess'? What about atheists who have no God? All of these types of people and many others make up the fabric of this great country of ours.
Adding the phrase "under God" creates division...which is contradictory because the word immediately following it is "indivisible".
So I guess it really comes down to whether you consider people who have a different theological outlook than the Christian God to be citizens or not. It really doesn't matter because legally we are citizens whether Christians think so or not.
By the way...the words "under God" are not offensive to me. The pledge of allegiance is just not the proper place to put them. Thats what churches are for. I will fight to the end to protect your right to worship as you please but to indoctrinate every public school child every morning in their classroom is just plain wrong. Take those two words out and it makes a world of difference.


I kinda feel like a dick when I do it because I don't think the people who normally post it really think about what they are saying. I was told by one of my friends that she was "just being patriotic" when she posted it.
I had a conversation about this as well after someone posted the exact phrase on my wall. Here’s how it went:

Him: I agree, our children should be taught this in school, but simply because they do not teach our children in school does not mean we cannot teach them it at home! May GOD bless America and all those that live in this great land of freedom!

Me: Would you feel different if it said "one nation under Allah"? That's basically what Muslim children feel like when they have to say under God every day.

My children say this everyday at school but the school district is made up of mostly Christians. I think it should be left up to the school districts and the community that supports that school.

Him: I have several Muslim friends whom interchange Allah and God all the time. Besides, it was never, "One nation under Allah"; rather, it has always been, "One nation under God!" After all, this is America still right?

Me: Well always since 1954. The under God in the pledge refers to the Christian God not Allah. After all, Christians only believe in One God. The only way to have true religious freedom is for the government to be secular and protect religious rights. I don’t want to the school to teach my children about God, that’s my responsibility.

The "it's still America" comment implies that America is a Christian nation. Even though >75% of Americans say they are Christian there is no evidence to support that. May America Bless God once in awhile.

Him: Robb - That's your choice. I, however, want my son to be taught the "Pledge of Allegiance", just as I was taught. Again, it is America, I should have that right and so should millions of other American children. Unless of course we are in the minority, which I seriously doubt. As a parent I still have a choice (Thank GOD) to send my son to a school that will uphold these rights! Always remember that you and I have the right to debate this in a public forum because of the men and women who have sacrificed their lives for this great nation - one nation under GOD, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for ALL!

Me: The constitution protects the rights of the minority. The majority does not get to do whatever they want. It does not infringe on your rights at all if “under God” is taken out of the pledge. However, it may violate the rights of people that do not believe in the Christian God. In fact, your child will be able to say under God on their own. The government has no right to promote one religion over another. Also, I do remember all the military people that have sacrificed some being Muslim, Buddhist and atheist as well. They fought and died to protect religious freedoms not to institute the Christian God in our public schools.

I feel that if you post something in Facebook it's ok to challenge them. They can always ignore or defriend you. Oh and not all belivers want prayer or God in school.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2010 :  23:37:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nice, Robb. I salute you for your good reasoning.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2010 :  15:15:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Ebone, if asking people to think is being a dick, then you are a major dick . Good for you!

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2010 :  15:17:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Robb:

Nicely stated. But remember that the Christian God and Allah are one and the same, although there seems to be some disagreement about what he actually wants his followers to do.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2010 :  01:03:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by R.Wreck

Robb:

Nicely stated. But remember that the Christian God and Allah are one and the same, although there seems to be some disagreement about what he actually wants his followers to do.
Correct. I should have worded that differently. When someone talks about Allah, they are talking about a different belief system about the one true God than what Christians believe about the one true God. For Christians, and I suspect Muslims as well, the words God and Allah are not interchangeable. As a Christian, I would never say "under Allah" becasue that would indicate I am endorsing what Muslims believe about God. I would never say under Allah so I would not want Muslim children to have to endorse what the Bible says about God everyday in the classroom by saying under God.

I am at odds with alot of my friends on issues like this such as prayer in school, ten commandments in public places etc. I have come to realize that if we as Christians push these issues then we will have no right to say anything if Muslims or another religion become the majority in this country and their beliefs are placed on display on government buildings or in public schools. Altough I believe that this country was founded by Christians, there is no indication in the constitution that it was set up to be a Christian nation.

I am also at odds with most Chritians in that I do not want to claim that >75% are Christians in the USA. I don't want to sound "hollier than thou" but from what I believe about Jesus there is no way that everyone that claims to be a Christian in America is actually a disciple of Jesus.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2010 :  08:13:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

As a Christian, I would never say "under Allah" becasue that would indicate I am endorsing what Muslims believe about God.
It would probably just mean that you'd be reciting the Pledge in Arabic, for some reason. After all, Christians and Jews who speak only Arabic say "Allah," because it's the proper Arabic word, no different than the Spanish "Dios," the French "Deu," the German "Gott" or the Mongolian "Tengri."

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2010 :  08:21:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, forgot this:
Originally posted by Robb

Altough I believe that this country was founded by Christians...
Certainly not Christians like you think of them. Lot of Unitarians. Jefferson (for just one example) denied the divinity of Christ, and stripped out all mention of miracles in his version of the Bible. But he was a church-goer, and thought that being religious was only right and proper for gentlemen of the time, but he didn't really care which religion.

Patrick Henry, on the other hand, campaigned against the adoption of the Constitution because it didn't set up the Christian theocracy that he thought was necessary.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2010 :  10:03:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Oh, forgot this:
Originally posted by Robb

Altough I believe that this country was founded by Christians...
Certainly not Christians like you think of them. Lot of Unitarians. Jefferson (for just one example) denied the divinity of Christ, and stripped out all mention of miracles in his version of the Bible. But he was a church-goer, and thought that being religious was only right and proper for gentlemen of the time, but he didn't really care which religion.

Patrick Henry, on the other hand, campaigned against the adoption of the Constitution because it didn't set up the Christian theocracy that he thought was necessary.
Yeah. They were kind of all over the place. Many were deists. And both Madison and Jefferson were something less than kind in their assessment of Christianity.

But the writers of the constitution and the first amendment did know their history, and they knew the pitfalls forming a theocracy. Many came here (or were "sent" here) fleeing religious persecution and they didn't want to make that same mistake.

I just don't get why some Christians don't understand how a secular government that allows all people the freedom to worship as they believe (or not believe) does not protect them from the tyranny of the majority, or even a minority by dictate. It's no accident that there is no mention of God in the constitution. The very secularism in government that they deplore is exactly what gives them the freedom to believe as they choose to.

Damn spell checker...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2010 :  10:12:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

I just don't get why some Christians don't understand how a secular government that allows all people the freedom to worship as they believe (or not believe) does not protect them from the ternary of the majority, or even a minority by dictate. It's no accident that there is no mention of God in the constitution. The very secularism in government that they deplore is exactly what gives them the freedom to believe as they choose to.


I am coming closer to understanding this.

It seems to me that those Christians do not think about that part. What they think about is that the majority rules. They are under the mistaken assumption that if the majority beleive it is true then it has to be true. They confuse politics with reality. They think that reality can be forced to change if the majority beleives it.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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