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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 11/15/2010 : 12:25:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
As a Christian, I would never say "under Allah" becasue that would indicate I am endorsing what Muslims believe about God. |
It would probably just mean that you'd be reciting the Pledge in Arabic, for some reason. After all, Christians and Jews who speak only Arabic say "Allah," because it's the proper Arabic word, no different than the Spanish "Dios," the French "Deu," the German "Gott" or the Mongolian "Tengri."
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Well I think you do understand what I am saying. I bet if you asked 100 people in America who Allah is, 99 would say the Muslim God. Muslims attribute different characteristics to God than do Christians. In this sense they are diffeent Gods. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 12:27:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I just don't get why some Christians don't understand how a secular government that allows all people the freedom to worship as they believe (or not believe) does not protect them from the ternary of the majority, or even a minority by dictate. It's no accident that there is no mention of God in the constitution. The very secularism in government that they deplore is exactly what gives them the freedom to believe as they choose to.
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Amen Kil. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 13:05:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I just don't get why some Christians don't understand how a secular government that allows all people the freedom to worship as they believe (or not believe) does not protect them from the ternary of the majority... |
I had no idea what this sentence meant. Merriam-Webster defines "ternary" as "occurring in threes or having three parts." Was Kil making a reference to the three branches of government?
Then I remembered that Kil's spellcheck often substitutes words he doesn't mean to use and I asked myself what he probably meant to say. Clearly he meant to write "tyranny" of the majority. That makes a hell of a lot more sense. But thanks, Kil, for teaching me a new word!
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 13:35:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Kil
I just don't get why some Christians don't understand how a secular government that allows all people the freedom to worship as they believe (or not believe) does not protect them from the ternary of the majority... |
I had no idea what this sentence meant. Merriam-Webster defines "ternary" as "occurring in threes or having three parts." Was Kil making a reference to the three branches of government?
Then I remembered that Kil's spellcheck often substitutes words he doesn't mean to use and I asked myself what he probably meant to say. Clearly he meant to write "tyranny" of the majority. That makes a hell of a lot more sense. But thanks, Kil, for teaching me a new word!
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You're welcome. We just cross posted. When I read Robb's post, I knew I was done in by my spell checker again... I fixed it in the original post...
This spelling thing used to be such a curse that I really didn't start writing prose until I had my first word processing program. And I still get them wrong... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 15:14:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I just don't get why some Christians don't understand how a secular government that allows all people the freedom to worship as they believe (or not believe) does not protect them from the ternary of the majority, or even a minority by dictate. It's no accident that there is no mention of God in the constitution. The very secularism in government that they deplore is exactly what gives them the freedom to believe as they choose to. |
They don't think they'll ever be in the minority. I remember asking Doomar to think about what life would be like without church/state separation and a Hindu majority, and his response was basically, "yeah, like that will ever happen," without even hinting that he'd given any consideration at all to the real import of the hypothetical.
He's probably right in that the U.S. is unlikely to be majority Hindu anytime soon, but with the rising Hispanic population, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that Protestants here have something real to fear in increasing numbers of Catholics. According to these numbers, Catholicism was the only Christian denomination that got bigger in U.S. between 2001 and 2008, with all others shrinking. If it's a trend and continues at that pace, Catholics will outnumber all other Christian groups combined in a mere... 140 years (or so). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 15:26:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Well I think you do understand what I am saying. |
Yes, but I was making a different point.| I bet if you asked 100 people in America who Allah is, 99 would say the Muslim God. |
And they'd be wrong, which is why I pointed out the Christian and Jewish Arabic-speakers.| Muslims attribute different characteristics to God than do Christians. In this sense they are diffeent Gods. |
Some Christian sects attribute different characteristics to God than you do, but still call their God "God." Will you stop calling your God "God" because others use the same name for a seemingly different entity? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 15:29:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
I just don't get why some Christians don't understand how a secular government that allows all people the freedom to worship as they believe (or not believe) does not protect them from the ternary of the majority, or even a minority by dictate. It's no accident that there is no mention of God in the constitution. The very secularism in government that they deplore is exactly what gives them the freedom to believe as they choose to. |
They don't think they'll ever be in the minority. I remember asking Doomar to think about what life would be like without church/state separation and a Hindu majority, and his response was basically, "yeah, like that will ever happen," without even hinting that he'd given any consideration at all to the real import of the hypothetical.
He's probably right in that the U.S. is unlikely to be majority Hindu anytime soon, but with the rising Hispanic population, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that Protestants here have something real to fear in increasing numbers of Catholics. According to these numbers, Catholicism was the only Christian denomination that got bigger in U.S. between 2001 and 2008, with all others shrinking. If it's a trend and continues at that pace, Catholics will outnumber all other Christian groups combined in a mere... 140 years (or so).
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The Catholics Come Home campaign must be working! |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2010 : 08:06:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
And they'd be wrong, which is why I pointed out the Christian and Jewish Arabic-speakers. |
I understand and have agreed with you here previously on this. But I think you have to admit that when you say Allah in America people attribute that to the Muslim god whether it is technically correct or not to do so.
Do you think then that Muslim children, when they say “under God” in the pledge are thinking about the God the Koran describes or the God the Bible describes? My argument is that since Christians put the “under God” in the pledge that Muslim children may not want to acknowledge that and say under God.
| Some Christian sects attribute different characteristics to God than you do, but still call their God "God." Will you stop calling your God "God" because others use the same name for a seemingly different entity? |
No. I think we are in agreement on this Dave W. I have no problem calling my God Allah but if Muslims put the words “under God “in the pledge then I would not feel comfortable saying those words in the pledge because I see it as endorsing what the Muslims believe about God.
I agree that Christians, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Mormons etc. all are talking about the same God. But when these groups describe who God is, then the God looks different and are even incompatible with each other, so in this sense they are different Gods.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2010 : 22:43:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
But I think you have to admit that when you say Allah in America people attribute that to the Muslim god whether it is technically correct or not to do so. |
Oh, sure, I'll agree that most Christians think that Allah is a completely different God out of sheer ignorance that Islam is an Abrahamaic religion (and/or what that means).| Do you think then that Muslim children, when they say “under God” in the pledge are thinking about the God the Koran describes or the God the Bible describes? My argument is that since Christians put the “under God” in the pledge that Muslim children may not want to acknowledge that and say under God. |
Without a shred of hard evidence - only trying to put myself in the shoes of a typical Islamic family, and with the knowledge that some US courts have said that "under God" is merely "ceremonial deism" and not an endorsement of Christianity - I'd bet a buck that 90% of Islamic children don't even think about it (since they're just kids), and I'd bet $10 that more than 75% of very devout Islamic parents have taught their kids that "God" is just the English word for "Allah."
Think about it this way, Robb: the only people who really complain about "under God" being in the Pledge are atheists. Muslims don't complain about it because they worship God, just using a word from a different language.| I agree that Christians, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Mormons etc. all are talking about the same God. But when these groups describe who God is, then the God looks different and are even incompatible with each other, so in this sense they are different Gods. |
I'm just curious here, Robb: how different do those gods need to be before you, personally, consider them to be different from the one you worship? Is denying the Trinity okay? Does Jesus need to be divine? How about if Jesus was crucified with three nails rather than four (or vice versa)? In other words, out of the 1,500 doctrinally distinct religious sects that self-identify as Christian in the U.S. alone, how many of them would you consider to worship a different god than you? Approximately, that is - I don't expect an exact count. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2010 : 09:11:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
But I think you have to admit that when you say Allah in America people attribute that to the Muslim god whether it is technically correct or not to do so. |
Oh, sure, I'll agree that most Christians think that Allah is a completely different God out of sheer ignorance that Islam is an Abrahamaic religion (and/or what that means). |
I disagree. Most Christians know the Muslim God is the same as the Christian God. However you do not seem to want to acknowledge that the attributes of each are different and incompatible. If a person ignorant of each religion looked at a list of attributes of God that a Muslim and Christian listed, I think they would conclude that they were not the same God. When I or other Christians say theyare not the same god I think this is what they are talking about. I do concede that there are a certain percentage of Christians that do not know the history of each religion and think that the Muslim God is a completely different God.
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
Do you think then that Muslim children, when they say “under God” in the pledge are thinking about the God the Koran describes or the God the Bible describes? My argument is that since Christians put the “under God” in the pledge that Muslim children may not want to acknowledge that and say under God. |
Without a shred of hard evidence - only trying to put myself in the shoes of a typical Islamic family, and with the knowledge that some US courts have said that "under God" is merely "ceremonial deism" and not an endorsement of Christianity - I'd bet a buck that 90% of Islamic children don't even think about it (since they're just kids), and I'd bet $10 that more than 75% of very devout Islamic parents have taught their kids that "God" is just the English word for "Allah."
Think about it this way, Robb: the only people who really complain about "under God" being in the Pledge are atheists. Muslims don't complain about it because they worship God, just using a word from a different language. |
I agree with you here. My comment was not based on any evidence but only what I would think. But I do think that when the phrase under god was introduced in the pledge, it was introduced by people that believed the Christian attributes of God and not what Muslims think who god is.
Originally posted by Dave W.
I'm just curious here, Robb: how different do those gods need to be before you, personally, consider them to be different from the one you worship? Is denying the Trinity okay? Does Jesus need to be divine? How about if Jesus was crucified with three nails rather than four (or vice versa)? In other words, out of the 1,500 doctrinally distinct religious sects that self-identify as Christian in the U.S. alone, how many of them would you consider to worship a different god than you? Approximately, that is - I don't expect an exact count. |
I could care less what different denominations doctrines are. If a person believes these things then I would consider them a Christian:
1. Jesus is the son of God, fully God and Fully man at the same time.
2. Jesus was crucified and died for the punishment of the sins you committed.
3. I you believe 1 and 2 and have repented of your sins then your sins will be forgiven and you will live for eternity in heaven.
I don’t think anything else such as the inerrancy of the Bible, Mary worship, saints, talking in tongues, creation/evolution etc matter. These are points that us Christians can discuss but in the end that is not why we are here. Now I don’t know how many of the 1,500 sects in America believe this or how many people that call themselves Christians in America believe this. But if a person believes the above I would call him a Christian.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2010 : 10:15:19 [Permalink]
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I just stumbled upon this disturbing news.
I am surprised I didn't hear about it sooner. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2010 : 10:26:47 [Permalink]
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| I just learned a new phrase also. It's called Ceremonial Deism and it sounds pretty weasely to me. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2010 : 15:32:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I disagree. Most Christians know the Muslim God is the same as the Christian God. |
I'm not so sure, any longer. I used to think it was common knowledge.| However you do not seem to want to acknowledge that the attributes of each are different and incompatible. |
No, I acknowledge that fully, which is why I asked you about the attributes of God just within Christian sects.| But I do think that when the phrase under god was introduced in the pledge, it was introduced by people that believed the Christian attributes of God and not what Muslims think who god is. |
It was put there by people who were terrified of the godless communists, and who had at least being religious in common with the Muslims. Given a choice between kissing a Muslim and spitting on a burning communist, I think the people who put "under God" in the Pledge would have opted for the former, and allowed the pinko to roast.I could care less what different denominations doctrines are. If a person believes these things then I would consider them a Christian:
1. Jesus is the son of God, fully God and Fully man at the same time.
2. Jesus was crucified and died for the punishment of the sins you committed.
3. I you believe 1 and 2 and have repented of your sins then your sins will be forgiven and you will live for eternity in heaven. |
Well, those are matters of doctrine. With just the first one, you've knocked Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists out of the "Christian" camp, for example. There are other groups who deny substitutive atonement, which is your point #2, and still others who deny #3, but they all call themselves Christians, and claim to worship God. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Am I being a dick?
