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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 11/17/2010 : 19:53:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I could care less what different denominations doctrines are. If a person believes these things then I would consider them a Christian:
1. Jesus is the son of God, fully God and Fully man at the same time.
2. Jesus was crucified and died for the punishment of the sins you committed.
3. I you believe 1 and 2 and have repented of your sins then your sins will be forgiven and you will live for eternity in heaven. |
Well, those are matters of doctrine. With just the first one, you've knocked Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists out of the "Christian" camp, for example. There are other groups who deny substitutive atonement, which is your point #2, and still others who deny #3, but they all call themselves Christians, and claim to worship God.
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I agree. You asked me what I consider to be a Christian so I answered. What is your point?
If people agree with what those groups you mentioned are teaching they are still worshiping the same God as I am with the exception that thier sins are not forgiven. The three items I gave are word for word from the bible. Some either do not like what the bible says or they do not believe what it says and would rather believe what others say what it says. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2010 : 16:42:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I agree. You asked me what I consider to be a Christian so I answered. What is your point?
If people agree with what those groups you mentioned are teaching they are still worshiping the same God as I am with the exception that thier sins are not forgiven. |
Well, no. If Jesus is God, in your estimation, then anyone who claims to follow a Jesus who isn't God isn't worshiping a God with the same characteristics as the God you worship. Ditto for the doctrines of substitutive atonement and salvation through faith (these are characteristics of God in so far as they are allegedly mechanisms God put in place to get you to Heaven). Odds are, since the reasons for adding "under God" to the Pledge were purely (even cynically) political, that many of the legislators who voted for it worshiped a god with different characteristics than yours (if they really worshiped at all).
My point is that you seem to be comfortable with saying "under God" when many people will mistake your God for their different god, and you're not comfortable with the same situation when it's a foreign word that means "God." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2010 : 01:30:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
The three items I gave are word for word from the bible. Some either do not like what the bible says or they do not believe what it says and would rather believe what others say what it says. |
Is the Bible not open to interpretation? I imagine you don't take everything in it as literal (or maybe you would rather believe what others say it says ;) ). I don't really want to go look up quotes you probably don't take literally, but you probably get my drift.
Then of course, the building of the Bible wasn't a continuous process, the books were chosen to be put together by humans, translated by humans (commissioned by heads of states at times...), etc, which I would think opens its meaning up to more questioning.
I'm not sure how something being "word for word" from the Bible necessarily binds all Christians to take it literally. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 11/20/2010 01:31:12 |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2010 : 10:18:55 [Permalink]
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| yes you are being a dick |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2010 : 22:06:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
yes you are being a dick
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Well that's a well reasoned opinion, thoroughly supported by logical argument. You convinced me. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2010 : 02:10:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
yes you are being a dick
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Your argument isn't really convincing. Please elaborate.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2010 : 07:04:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
yes you are being a dick
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God said it
I believe it
That settles it
Typical fundie argument. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2010 : 13:28:33 [Permalink]
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| Yes thanks for contributing an argument on my behalf. You clearly love putting people in boxes and then inserting words into their mouths. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2010 : 13:54:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Yes thanks for contributing an argument on my behalf. You clearly love putting people in boxes and then inserting words into their mouths.
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Well, when you fail to even attempt to defend your assertions, people are apt to guess at your reasoning in the absence of any other explanation. Rather than whine about this, you could simply explain the reasoning behind your conclusion.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2010 : 14:58:57 [Permalink]
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I thought he was just going for funny. Which it kinda was.... Just because he is religious doesn't mean he can't have a sense of humor!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Smithford
New Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2010 : 01:00:54 [Permalink]
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This thread so makes me want to write a story where a bunch of people standing around are arguing about what version of god is real. At the end of the story they find out they are all god. *Sigh* It's been done to death. And once more I must remind myself to not surf the web for skeptic stuffs when I should be surfing the web for fictional story stuffs. *Perks up* BUT! I learned some new words today. Thank's Kil's spell-correction-service!
Sammantha
www.skepticsabsinthe.blogspot.com
003-Not Connecting The Dots. Yet. |
Skeptic's Absinthe www.skepticsabsinthe.blogspot.com
Paramour is Unrelated www.fordsparamours.blogspot.com |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2010 : 09:11:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Smithford
*Perks up* BUT! I learned some new words today. Thank's Kil's spell-correction-service!
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Happy to be of service.. Well, not really. I'm not my stinking spell checker.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2010 : 21:53:53 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | Think about it this way, Robb: the only people who really complain about "under God" being in the Pledge are atheists. Muslims don't complain about it because they worship God, just using a word from a different language. |
The controversy over the pledge in public schools has never been just about the "under God" addition. The first time I heard about students and their families objecting to the pledge being said in public schools it was Jehovah's Witnesses who object to pledging to any entity other than God himself. I know that some other individuals and groups (such as Quakers) have objected on the same grounds. I like the argument that very young children should not be compelled in school to make pledges that they don't even understand yet. I also like the argument that America is a country where citizens are free to express their dissent and compelling public school children to recite a pledge every morning to the American flag runs counter to the spirit of that particular freedom. Saying a pledge should mean something, and it doesn't mean much when one is compelled and trained through years of authoritative instruction to do so. Saying the pledge didn't mean shit to me in school. But once at a rally years ago I said it with great emotion and pride (leaving out the line "under God.") But even if a US citizen never wants to pledge to the damn flag, they are no less American.
(edited for typos.) |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 12/13/2010 21:55:31 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2010 : 11:25:12 [Permalink]
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| Hi Marf! Nice to see you again, you've been gone too long! |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2010 : 01:29:25 [Permalink]
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| Well, when you fail to even attempt to defend your assertions, people are apt to guess at your reasoning in the absence of any other explanation. Rather than whine about this, you could simply explain the reasoning behind your conclusion. |
I could but I chose not to. That doesn't give anyone the right to do it for me. |
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Am I being a dick?
