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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2011 :  16:07:02  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep. Michael Coren has a new book out.

How is it going to be presented?

Iím sure there will be an attempt to turn the dicussion into a debate about the abuse crisis Ė mainly homosexual men abusing teenage boys Ė but Iím not going to let uninformed journalists do what they have done on this subject over the years. The abuse was grotesque, but Iíve covered this in an entire chapter in the book. It concerned a tiny number of clergy, the numbers were the same or less than, for example, schools, sports teams, other churches, volunteer groups, and the Church has dealt with it superbly in the last few years.


Shit, so much wrong...Ok!

1) The claim that the numbers were the same (or less than) those other groups mentioned.

Apparently not.

1) It is not "a few bad apples". Around 9% of Catholic Priests that fell fully within the reporting period had substantiated sexual abuse investigations made against them.

2) Child sex abuse by Catholic Priests is not "like you would get in any profession". By the Church's own records, Catholic Priests are more than 100-fold more likely to be a child sex offender than an average member of the public.

3) There was a cover-up. When 96% of Priests with more than 10 allegations of child sexual abuse against them are transferred rather than reported to the police, there is no other way to describe it but a systematic cover-up.


We'll see how my comment is taken.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.

the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2011 :  06:48:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My comment hasn't shown up yet.


>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2011 :  07:41:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not taking sides, it's a fact that I don't like catholicism, but Coren says:

the numbers were the same or less than, for example, schools, sports teams, other churches, volunteer groups.


and the article says:

2) Child sex abuse by Catholic Priests is not "like you would get in any profession". By the Church's own records, Catholic Priests are more than 100-fold more likely to be a child sex offender than an average member of the public.


Now Coren is talking about the levels compared to other professions/services that come into contact with children, and the article is talking about the levels compared to any member of public. I'm not much of a number cruncher, (well I can be but I don't like doing it) is it not possible they are both accurate?

Edited by - On fire for Christ on 04/12/2011 07:42:46
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2011 :  09:43:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

I'm not much of a number cruncher, (well I can be but I don't like doing it) is it not possible they are both accurate?
It doesn't matter. The numbers argument is an attempt to distract away from the fact that Catholic priests are supposed to be paragons of virtue and chastity (as well as the self-appointed sole arbiters of morality on Earth), so their rate should be zero. Any deviation from that level should be seen as horrifically and hypocritically immoral, but Coren is such an unfeeling monster that he defends it as normal.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2011 :  10:07:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of course it matters. Even Catholics don't expect Catholic Priests to be free from sins. But they expect them to be less sinful than the average person.
If we know how the rate of abuse compares to other people working in similar roles with children, then that is powerful information. I don't see how you can brush it aside as moot.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2011 :  14:53:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Of course it matters. Even Catholics don't expect Catholic Priests to be free from sins.
Well, I expect every adult to avoid coercing children into sex. I expect Catholic priests to not have sex with anyone (coerced or not) because that's what they promise.
But they expect them to be less sinful than the average person.
Very much so!
If we know how the rate of abuse compares to other people working in similar roles with children, then that is powerful information. I don't see how you can brush it aside as moot.
The really important part is the institutionalized protection of the abusive priests, so even if the rates of abuse among priests and teachers or coaches were identical, focusing on those numbers is a distraction away from the grave problems within the Catholic Church. If only one priest had ever diddled a child, it would be too many if the Church's response was to cover it up, because the Church insists that its clergy are almost divinely trustworthy.

Teachers, coaches, etc. aren't ordained by God. We tend to run background checks on those sorts of professionals before entrusting our children to them. Imagine the response of the Holy See if we started doing deep investigations into their priests before dropping the kids off for Sunday school (not that I ever would, but you know what I mean).

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2011 :  20:17:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I expect every adult to avoid coercing children into sex.


I expect we are using slightly different variations in meaning of the word "expect". But yes you would hope that people behave this way, but it would be naive to assume everyone will regardless of what they promise. People "expect" the cases of priests abusing children to be more than zero. And this is where I disagree with you because I think how high that number goes is the thing which is most relevant to people, rather than the baseline argument of "it shouldn't happen in the first place".

I think this is a difference of philosophy as I often find between me and you, Dave, you seem more concerned with stating some kind of absolute argument that is logically sound, rather than finding the argument that is most likely to work. I think I said it before somewhere, the best argument is the one that changes minds, you still need facts, but you need the facts that will connect with people the most.

Personally I see the rate of abuse in catholic priests to be a great tool in one of my lifelong dreams (the ultimate destruction of the Catholic Church), the cover-up is good stuff too, but it isn't as potent.

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2011 :  20:52:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OFFC said:
the cover-up is good stuff too, but it isn't as potent.

I disagree. The coverup is the most damning part. It proves that the entire organization is corrupt. When you have people who didn't commit a crime decide to cover up the crimes of others, to protect an organization's reputation, that is a far larger problem than the kid fucking alone.

The comical part here is that the church could have kept its reputation safe by simply having a policy of turning the ones who were doing this shit over to the police, kick them out of the church, and excommunicate them or something.

The fact that they decided to cover this up, and allowed know child molesters/rapists to have access to other children in new places, makes everyone involved guilty. Just like if you are the getaway driver for a robbery, and your associates killed a person, you are also guilty of that murder. So the people who did the cover up are guilty of the original crime and the conspiracy to hide it.

Everyone involved should be in prison.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2011 :  23:13:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Now Coren is talking about the levels compared to other professions/services that come into contact with children, and the article is talking about the levels compared to any member of public. I'm not much of a number cruncher, (well I can be but I don't like doing it) is it not possible they are both accurate?



Could be, depending on definition of "coming into contact with children."

And of course it matters, but only insofar as it refutes the_ignored's 2nd criticism.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/12/2011 23:20:59
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  04:53:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

I expect we are using slightly different variations in meaning of the word "expect". But yes you would hope that people behave this way, but it would be naive to assume everyone will regardless of what they promise. People "expect" the cases of priests abusing children to be more than zero.
My expectations are based on how I think people should behave. Of course some people aren't going to meet that standard of morality, otherwise we wouldn't need "laws" (and we wouldn't be having this conversation). People fail to meet my expectations every day, but some failures are far more egregious than others.
And this is where I disagree with you because I think how high that number goes is the thing which is most relevant to people, rather than the baseline argument of "it shouldn't happen in the first place".
But that's not the argument I'm putting forth.
I think this is a difference of philosophy as I often find between me and you, Dave, you seem more concerned with stating some kind of absolute argument that is logically sound, rather than finding the argument that is most likely to work. I think I said it before somewhere, the best argument is the one that changes minds, you still need facts, but you need the facts that will connect with people the most.

Personally I see the rate of abuse in catholic priests to be a great tool in one of my lifelong dreams (the ultimate destruction of the Catholic Church), the cover-up is good stuff too, but it isn't as potent.
Obviously, your standard of "most likely to work" is different from mine. We have solid evidence of a global conspiracy involving all levels of hierarchy in an organization to hide and worse-yet enable the sordid victimization of those least able to protect themselves by those in positions of ultimate trust, but you think that a mere quantization of failure (which is really a tu quoque fallacy) will be more compelling.

At any rate, the numbers you're looking for are going to be tough to find. Child abuse statisticians seem to (rightly) focus on the victims, and not on the perpetrators. For example, in 2008, 0.5% of the cases of abuse and neglect of children were perpetrated by day-care providers, but that doesn't mean that 0.5% of day-care providers abused or neglected the kids in their charge. Even if we found an estimate of the total number of day-care providers in 2008, we'd have to assume that every case of abuse by them was committed by a different individual to be able to come up with a percentage of day-care providers who abuse children, an assumption that's quite probably wrong and would over-estimate the size of the problem. Sketchy statistics aren't going to win people over, not when you're attacking the earth-bound representatives of their God.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  07:09:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My new reply:

So much wrong in such a small paragraph:

The abuse was grotesque, but Iíve covered this in an entire chapter in the book. It concerned a tiny number of clergy, the numbers were the same or less than, for example, schools, sports teams, other churches, volunteer groups, and the Church has dealt with it superbly in the last few years.<

Wrong:
1) It is not "a few bad apples". Around 9% of Catholic Priests that fell fully within the reporting period had substantiated sexual abuse investigations made against them.

2) Child sex abuse by Catholic Priests is not "like you would get in any profession". By the Church's own records, Catholic Priests are more than 100-fold more likely to be a child sex offender than an average member of the public.

3) There was a cover-up. When 96% of Priests with more than 10 allegations of child sexual abuse against them are transferred rather than reported to the police, there is no other way to describe it but a systematic cover-up.

About the "homosexual" scapegoating excuse:
In one unbiased analysis of the perpetrators of child sex abuse, less than 1% of molesters were homosexual - well below the population average

Another reality check for Coren:
When these percentages are layered upon the 10% accusation rate, the Church's own official reports (which can be considered a bare minimum) demonstrate that 8.2-9.9% of Catholic Priests were child sex offenders.


No, if the church wanted to handle this problem "superbly" they could, among other things:
5) Fix the damn problem. Sell a few pieces of art and pay restitution to the victims. Make it official Church policy to report every incident to the police. Investigate Priests with the zeal shown during the Spanish Inquisition. Shut up about other people's "sins" until the Church is clean. Change those aspects of doctrine or theology that drive child rape. Show some humility.

Be glad I'm not bothering to talk about the other "problems" your church has had throughout the centuries.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 04/13/2011 07:10:59
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  07:58:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you really need some numbers... In 2008, there were 1,001 cases of children being sexually abused by day-care providers. There were about 1,287,700 day-care providers in the US in 2008. So if every case of sexual abuse was committed by a unique day-care provider, the rate of sexual abuse of minors among them was at worst 0.08%.

In 2008, there were 349 cases of children being sexually abused by "other professionals." This category is a catch-all for people whose job includes contact with (and presumably protection of) children, like teachers, coaches, police, etc. There were 3,674,000 primary and secondary school teachers in the US in 2008. Assuming that all of the "other professionals" were teachers and assuming that each case was perpetrated by a unique teacher, the rate of sexual abuse among teachers was at worst 0.009%.

So Adrian Liston should have said that Catholic priests are 100 times more likely to be sexually abusive of children than US day-care providers, and nearly 1,000-fold more likely than teachers.

Of course, it makes sense that these sorts of professionals are much less likely to engage in abuse than the general public (0.5%, remember), because parents like to know that their kids are safe when left alone with them, and so they go through background checks and the like. People mistakenly assumed their kids would be safe with Catholic priests (and the priests themselves actively fostered such trust), but that turned out to be a lie in comparatively huge numbers of cases.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  08:11:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mind if I just post a link to your post over on his blog?

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  09:44:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by the_ignored

Mind if I just post a link to your post over on his blog?
No, go ahead. But the numbers themselves still miss the bigger point. It wouldn't matter if, say, teachers were no better at keeping their hands off kids than the priests, because there is no global organization that shuffles predatory teachers from one school to another trying to keep them from facing prosecution for their crimes.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  14:30:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

If you really need some numbers... In 2008, there were 1,001 cases of children being sexually abused by day-care providers.


That's Table 5-6 (p. 74) if anyone's looking. This does actually kill Coren's argument about rate of abusers.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/13/2011 14:31:05
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  15:08:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Machi4velli

That's Table 5-6 (p. 74) if anyone's looking.
I knew I was forgetting something.
This does actually kill Coren's argument about rate of abusers.
The fact that it was a tu quoque killed it dead in the first place.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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