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 Worship vs. Creation
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  16:48:23  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is a subject I know that I have touched on before. I am becoming increasingly frustrated that it is not addressed regularly by anyone that I read or watch.

Recently I re-discovered that I could watch you-tube on my PS3. This along with my new e-reader have put information at my fingertips at a rate that I have never experienced before. I have been totally absorbed watching lectures and debates by the likes of PZ Myers, Richard Dawkins, Dan Dennett, and Christopher Hitchens among others. I am currently reading Origin of Species, The Bible, and Demon Haunted World. All of my spare time has been devoted to absorbing this information. I have no idea what good it is going to do me in my life but I have a keen interest in these subjects. Lately it seems to be bordering on obsession.

There is one thing missing and I do not understand why no one addresses this issue.

My logic tells me that the creation of the universe and the actual worship of dieties are two completely different subjects.

So we don't know how the universe came to be. Theists say "God did it". Alrighty then. Hey, I'll even accept it as an argument (not to the point of calling myself an agnostic though).

How does that turn into " We must worship god and be good because this god knows all and sees all and will send you to Hell if you don't follow the rules."?

I do not understand the connection. They are two different subjects.

Is anyone aware of any author, professor, or anyone who is thinking along the same lines as me? I sure would like to get pointed in a direction because I feel all alone in my thoughts.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring

Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  18:05:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
How does that turn into " We must worship god and be good because this god knows all and sees all and will send you to Hell if you don't follow the rules."?
It doesn't. The only people who do this also fail to see why Pascal's wager sucks.

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26000 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  18:11:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

I do not understand the connection. They are two different subjects.
It boils down to "God's universe, God's rules." The unspoken assumption is that you want to get into Heaven, so if God says "jump," you jump. If you don't follow the rules, God kicks you out of the clubhouse.
Is anyone aware of any author, professor, or anyone who is thinking along the same lines as me? I sure would like to get pointed in a direction because I feel all alone in my thoughts.
I doubt you'll see a lot of scholarly works addressing this, because it's so damn childish.

There are other god-concepts out there that aren't so needy or petulant, but if you're talking about a deity who created the universe but does not demand worship from its creation, then you're not talking about the Christian God. "Theists" don't connect the creation of the universe to the worship of God, the Abrahamaic religions do.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  18:14:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ebone.....


How does that turn into " We must worship god and be good because this god knows all and sees all and will send you to Hell if you don't follow the rules."?

I do not understand the connection. They are two different subjects.
Consider this as a possibility:
Long ago, a small subset (the smartest subset) of the population figured this out: Most people can't understand how the world and the stars and the moon and everything got here. And most people worry about dying. They just don't want to stop living. So let's give them something the simple souls can understand and which will really cheer them up about dying. We'll make up a "God," and tell them he made everything. And when you die you go live with him forever. With a harp and wings and virgins for the men to fuck, and a whole lot of other shit.

But we will also tell them that only we, the Smarts, can talk to the God, and he tells us what everybody has to do. And if they don't do it, they will go to Hell when they die. If they do what we tell them that he wants them to do, they will go to Heaven....and they better not listen to anybody but us and the real God or they will go to Hell also. Give us most of your stuff, too!

And it worked pretty well, and the few led the many, and got most of the good stuff, and got to tell everbody, who was not a Smart, what to do and how to think. And so was born the priesthoods, and the Abrahamic religions and the basic idea of the control of the many by the few. And it was called religion. And Politics came along and copied the system. And the Politician's God was called mammon.






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alienist
Skeptic Friend

USA
210 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  18:45:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send alienist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I read somewhere that someone has pinpointed the area of the brain that is related to religion.

http://www.livescience.com/3366-scientists-god-brain.html

In any case, I think it is human nature to find a way to deal with mortality and to deal events beyond our control (earthquakes, etc)

The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  18:51:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some good thoughts so far.
Your fustration maybe based on the fact that all religions are different and you seen to be putting all religions into one pot. Which I think should never be done. The differences range from having very little difference in dogma to having great differences in fundamental beliefs on which they were founded on. For example, not all religions believe in hell or not all are monotheistic. As you know the Hindu's today have a great many deities that they pray to for different needs. Also ancient Greeks and the Egyptians worshiped many gods too. The North American Indians had some strange beliefs explaining the origin of the earth or specific animals, like where the first bear came from or beaver, when compared to western religious beliefs. They all can't be correct because they contradict each other in a lesser or greater degree.
Your question,,,
"How does that turn into " We must worship god and be good because this god knows all and sees all and will send you to Hell if you don't follow the rules."?

,,, can only have an answer if that belief is true and then you might be better served to go to theist that have that understanding of reality and have them explain it. Looking for critical thinkers like you mentioned to have an answer is not likely to be had because delusions and how they relate to reality can be tough to answer. Seeing that delusions are not real or based in reality. Delusional believers whether they Muslims or Hindus, what have you, might try and give you an answer but they're explanations are not likely to satisfy you. If they can or do, start worrying, it's a sure sign you've lost your CT ability. Saying or believing one is capable of Critical Thinking is easier said than done, based on what I've read and learned on this forum. SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  20:44:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by alienist

I read somewhere that someone has pinpointed the area of the brain that is related to religion.
http://www.livescience.com/3366-scientists-god-brain.html

Does this mean we now know where to aim our fish? SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend

USA
131 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  21:53:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Baxter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"...and be good because this god knows all and sees all and will send you to Hell if you don't follow the rules".
So, Ebone4rock, if God is real, do you think God would have no problem with you murdering people?

Morality seems to be intuitively connected to the idea of God.

"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." ~from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey

"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." ~Robert G. Ingersoll
Edited by - Baxter on 04/13/2011 21:57:14
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  22:35:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Baxter.....

Morality seems to be intuitively connected to the idea of God.
I think morality may be intuitively connected to the idea of mortality.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2011 :  23:50:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So we don't know how the universe came to be. Theists say "God did it". Alrighty then. Hey, I'll even accept it as an argument (not to the point of calling myself an agnostic though).

How does that turn into " We must worship god and be good because this god knows all and sees all and will send you to Hell if you don't follow the rules."?


It doesn't immediately. It's one piece of a much larger argument. Evidence of a divine creation would not prove Christianity is true any more than evidence for Evolution proves there is no afterlife.

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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1884 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2011 :  12:22:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

So we don't know how the universe came to be. Theists say "God did it". Alrighty then. Hey, I'll even accept it as an argument (not to the point of calling myself an agnostic though).

How does that turn into " We must worship god and be good because this god knows all and sees all and will send you to Hell if you don't follow the rules."?


It doesn't immediately. It's one piece of a much larger argument. Evidence of a divine creation would not prove Christianity is true any more than evidence for Evolution proves there is no afterlife.
Nor would eveidence of an afterlife support devine creation or show christianity to be true. But would evidence of any one of these be proof of either of the other two? Unlikely and it's unlikely to matter since the larger argument rest firmly on a foundation of faith.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2011 :  13:20:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Baxter

"...and be good because this god knows all and sees all and will send you to Hell if you don't follow the rules".
So, Ebone4rock, if God is real, do you think God would have no problem with you murdering people?

Morality seems to be intuitively connected to the idea of God.

If I'm reading you correctly, that is ridiculous.

Also, if god is real (and omnipotent as described) then free will does not exist. Every action you take is merely an expression of divine intent, so if the christian god is real, then every murder is intended, so god has no problem with it.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2011 :  14:22:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Baxter

"...and be good because this god knows all and sees all and will send you to Hell if you don't follow the rules".
So, Ebone4rock, if God is real, do you think God would have no problem with you murdering people?

Morality seems to be intuitively connected to the idea of God.


The book of Exodus clearly states that god is totally cool with murdering people...as long as they are not from your own "tribe".

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2011 :  14:27:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess ny frustration comes mostly from the fact that I have never seen anyone clearly point out to the theists that creation and worship are two different subjects therefore they should be debated seperately.

Dave, I do understand why you say the thought is "childish" because it is a most basic of concept. I think these very basic concepts need to be re-visited and addressed.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2011 :  14:29:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

Originally posted by Baxter

"...and be good because this god knows all and sees all and will send you to Hell if you don't follow the rules".
So, Ebone4rock, if God is real, do you think God would have no problem with you murdering people?

Morality seems to be intuitively connected to the idea of God.

If I'm reading you correctly, that is ridiculous.

Also, if god is real (and omnipotent as described) then free will does not exist. Every action you take is merely an expression of divine intent, so if the christian god is real, then every murder is intended, so god has no problem with it.




Good point Dude. I will have to use this with my Sister and Brother in-law when they go on and on about "free will".

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26000 Posts

Posted - 04/14/2011 :  14:33:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Dave, I do understand why you say the thought is "childish" because it is a most basic of concept.
No, I'm saying it's childish because it's nothing more than the might-makes-right idea that because God made the playhouse, God's demands for worship have to be followed.

That's the only reason I can see that the creation and worship are tied together in the Abrahamaic religions.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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