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 Are atheists more moral?
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2011 :  14:59:40  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At least according to one source we may be:

Is this knee-jerk dislike of atheists warranted? Not even close.

A growing body of social science research reveals that atheists, and non-religious people in general, are far from the unsavory beings many assume them to be. On basic questions of morality and human decency issues such as governmental use of torture, the death penalty, punitive hitting of children, racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, environmental degradation or human rights the irreligious tend to be more ethical than their religious peers, particularly compared with those who describe themselves as very religious.


Maybe something to spread around a bit, after more reading?

Edit: As usual, it looks like PZ Myers beat me to it!


Man, the comments there are just full of win.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.

Edited by - the_ignored on 04/30/2011 15:04:47

the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2011 :  02:35:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Then you could compare William Lane Craig to PZ Myers.


>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2011 :  11:33:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've seen this sort of info before. I used to start to buy into the argument, but I don't anymore because I just see too many other factors that make the groups difficult to compare. More educated, middle class people tend to be atheists in America, and these same people get divorced less, have less teen pregnancy, commit less violent crimes, etc. But how can we tell what is causing what? People in more secular nations tend to be better off and happier, but how do we know that they don't tend to be more secular because they are better off and happier? I'm glad we atheists have this info to defend ourselves against the many attacks on our morality from religious bigots and ignoramuses. I just hope we don't use it to foster a feeling of our own superiority.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2011 :  11:48:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Amen to that Martha!

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2011 :  14:49:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

People in more secular nations tend to be better off and happier, but how do we know that they don't tend to be more secular because they are better off and happier?
That was the conclusion of a fairly recent study which I can't find right now. The reason the US is still highly religious, they suggest, is that even though we're one of the richest countries in the world, our extreme social inequities lead to strife which causes people to turn to religion for comfort and security. Things like social safety nets and universal health care (see Europe) offer people a chance to shed their gods.

If that conclusion is correct, then our more libertarian-leaning members here (like Ebone) need to listen up: if you want to encourage atheism in the US, you should vote liberal.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2011 :  16:08:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by marfknox

People in more secular nations tend to be better off and happier, but how do we know that they don't tend to be more secular because they are better off and happier?
That was the conclusion of a fairly recent study which I can't find right now. The reason the US is still highly religious, they suggest, is that even though we're one of the richest countries in the world, our extreme social inequities lead to strife which causes people to turn to religion for comfort and security. Things like social safety nets and universal health care (see Europe) offer people a chance to shed their gods.

If that conclusion is correct, then our more libertarian-leaning members here (like Ebone) need to listen up: if you want to encourage atheism in the US, you should vote liberal.


Hey! What did I do? Geez...I have a facebook friend who calls me a liberal, now Dave is calling me a libertarian!

I can't be a liberal. I demand that every person put forth 100% effort to take care of themselves. I can't be a libertarian because I beleive in the ancient Hawaiian system of Ahupua'a. I'd really like to be a conservative but them there fothermuckers are just too damn insane nowadays and I don't want anything to do with them.

So that leaves me just being an atheist and fighting everyone on my own.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2011 :  17:47:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ebone4rock:
I can't be a liberal. I demand that every person put forth 100% effort to take care of themselves.

What does this mean?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2011 :  19:00:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Ebone4rock:
I can't be a liberal. I demand that every person put forth 100% effort to take care of themselves.

What does this mean?
It sounds to me like he's suggesting that cancer patients needs to cut out their tumours on their own.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2011 :  19:30:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ew. No, I think that means that he's saying that people should rely on the gov't for as little as possible. Sometimes it may be necessary.

To the reason why I posted that article; it was mentioned that there are a lot of factors to take into account so that one can't really draw any certain correlations with atheism and morality. I can see that. I figure though that that study does however shoot down the theist canard that atheists can't/won't/aren't moral without their god belief.

We can be, and often are, and without their god(s).


>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2011 :  20:46:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by Kil

Ebone4rock:
I can't be a liberal. I demand that every person put forth 100% effort to take care of themselves.

What does this mean?
It sounds to me like he's suggesting that cancer patients needs to cut out their tumours on their own.



No, it does not mean anything like that. Ig got it right in the last post.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2011 :  06:41:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Hey! What did I do? Geez...I have a facebook friend who calls me a liberal, now Dave is calling me a libertarian!
Nah, I said you had libertarian leanings, and you do, at least with regard to policies (progressive taxation, for example) that would affect the sorts of metrics used to conclude that social stability leads to atheism (income equality, for example). I've got no clue as to whether Ahupua'a would encourage atheism or theism, though.
I can't be a liberal. I demand that every person put forth 100% effort to take care of themselves.
So do I, but I recognize that not everybody has the same 100% level (what might be 10% effort for me might be someone else's 100%, through no fault of theirs).

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2011 :  07:24:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ebone, so what you mean by
I can't be a liberal. I demand that every person put forth 100% effort to take care of themselves.
is that
people should rely on the gov't for as little as possible.


So, people who rely on social security for at least part of their retirement should instead work until they die.

People who live in subsidized housing should live in privately-run homeless shelters for years until they can save enough money to purchase or rent their own home.

People who lose their jobs should go without health insurance instead of purchasing COBRA (if they can afford it) or applying for Medicaid (if they can't afford COBRA.) And retired people should continue to purchase their own private medical insurance instead of relying on Medicare, even if it means they have to work until they die.

Parents that can't afford private schooling for their children should quit their jobs and home school.

And when jerks hang out dealing drugs and littering the empty houses across the street from me are loudly carrying on at midnight, instead of calling the cops, I should go over there with a baseball bat.

Anything less is not putting forth 100% effort to take care of myself. Got it.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 05/06/2011 07:26:13
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2011 :  09:03:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
I've got no clue as to whether Ahupua'a would encourage atheism or theism, though.


I don't think atheism or theism have any relevence to the basic concept.
So do I, but I recognize that not everybody has the same 100% level (what might be 10% effort for me might be someone else's 100%, through no fault of theirs).


I do as well. Over the last year or so since I have been interacting with you I have begun to shed some of my prejudices against those who collect government benefits. I'm still not quite there yet because people who abuse and manipulate the system to avoid working hard are part of my everyday life and my resentment is still there.


Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2011 :  09:12:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

Ebone, so what you mean by
I can't be a liberal. I demand that every person put forth 100% effort to take care of themselves.
is that
people should rely on the gov't for as little as possible.


So, people who rely on social security for at least part of their retirement should instead work until they die.

People who live in subsidized housing should live in privately-run homeless shelters for years until they can save enough money to purchase or rent their own home.

People who lose their jobs should go without health insurance instead of purchasing COBRA (if they can afford it) or applying for Medicaid (if they can't afford COBRA.) And retired people should continue to purchase their own private medical insurance instead of relying on Medicare, even if it means they have to work until they die.

Parents that can't afford private schooling for their children should quit their jobs and home school.

And when jerks hang out dealing drugs and littering the empty houses across the street from me are loudly carrying on at midnight, instead of calling the cops, I should go over there with a baseball bat.

Anything less is not putting forth 100% effort to take care of myself. Got it.


marfknox, I said none of those things or anything remotely resembling them. You are creating a strawman out of me.

Of course there are situations which require government assisance. I am willing to help in these instances. I know that you have not been posting very often since I joined SFN so you probably do not know that I hear about blatant abuses of government programs every single night at supper time. My wife sees them first hand. It has made us both very bitter.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2011 :  09:46:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

marfknox, I know that you have not been posting very often since I joined...



I see that marf went ahead and "hosted" one of those "parasite" things for 9 months that normal people call babies. And is even currently "hosting another parasite". I know last we talked she was pretty sure she would never "host a parasite with her body". I guess she changed her mind, a woman's prerogative I hear.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2011 :  10:22:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

marfknox, I know that you have not been posting very often since I joined...



I see that marf went ahead and "hosted" one of those "parasite" things for 9 months that normal people call babies. And is even currently "hosting another parasite". I know last we talked she was pretty sure she would never "host a parasite with her body". I guess she changed her mind, a woman's prerogative I hear.


Is this meant to be some sort of insult to marfknox? Way uncool.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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