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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  06:52:23  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One of my friends who also works for a national organization in the freethought movement and is a young woman linked to this article on her FB page saying: "This is one of the most clear, calm explanations of some of the gender problems in our movement that I've seen. It's worth a read no matter what side you're on."

http://www.pixlee.net/?p=524

Given that most of the peeps on this forum are straight men, what do you all think?


"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  07:00:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Darnit! The filters here won't let me see it!

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  08:51:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

One of my friends who also works for a national organization in the freethought movement and is a young woman linked to this article on her FB page saying: "This is one of the most clear, calm explanations of some of the gender problems in our movement that I've seen. It's worth a read no matter what side you're on."

http://www.pixlee.net/?p=524

Given that most of the peeps on this forum are straight men, what do you all think?


first off, before I comment on the article, I want to tell you Marf that I think you're attractive even though in general woman are immature, less reasonable, or more emotional than men.

As for the rest of the article, I couldn't agree more.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  09:16:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I never considered myself a misogynist, I love women more than anything...and I mean ANYTHING....but I am sure the rest of the world would consider me one. I'm going to take a stab at this one and take my lickins' as they come.

We live in a subjective world. How we perceive our actions and the intent behind them is not always how they are seen by others.


Agreed, but this is not only true for straight men. it is true for everyone.

Women are adult human people, just like you and me. I hate that I have to include this, but based on the comments I see on skeptic blogs every time the issue of sexism is raised, there are a lot of seriously fucked up dudes among us who genuinely seem to feel that as a rule women are immature, less reasonable, or more emotional than men. If you are one of these people stop reading and go buy a sex robot. Everyone will be happier.



I am familiar with the comments he is talking about. Those type of guys just seem to be total asses. I would like to attempt to defend regular guys though.

Could the feeling that woman are more immature, less reasonable, and more emotional come from personal experience? I know that in my daily life it is my responsibility to attempt to balance the women in my life's (wife, mom, and little sis) emotional wackiness with the correct things that need to be done to keep them safe and secure. It is a tough job seeing as I have my own wife at home but also have a mother and sister that seem dependent on me. I can totally see how these conclusions are reached because I live with it every day. No matter how much I try to encourage the women in my life to be more independent it just doesn't seem to work.

I am lucky that my Granny was an independent and wise woman. It showed me that it is possible but the reality is that it is also exceedingly rare. No wonder these guys are so confused about what to do when they come across independent, freethinking women.

It is not your job, nor is it your responsibility, or even your right to let women know when you think they are pretty. There is a time and a place for that sort of compliment. If you ever have any doubt at all, err on the side of keeping your mouth shut. Women deal with unwelcome sexual advances, often quite threatening ones, every day. This is the sort of thing itís best to refrain from saying until you know someone well and they will understand your (pure, virtuous, and not at all sexual) intentions for what they really are.


It is also a stupid move if you are trying to get a woman to sleep with you. These guys are inexperienced about picking up women. You NEVER try to pick up a woman by telling them how pretty they are. Once you do that it puts you in a submissive position. A better strategy would be to feign interest and be charming without being overbearing. Most guys cannot comprehend this strategy.

I think there are two things that can be done to help this problem.

1. These stupid men need to learn how to be smoother when they are talking to women. If a guy is smooth enough the misogyny will not be noticed.

2. The independent, free-thinking women need understand that they are a rare breed. They need to help other people of their gender learn how to become more independent and free-thinking. This will increase the number of independent, free-thinking women that the misogynistic men encounter and over time they will not be such dumbasses when they do encounter them.




Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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alienist
Skeptic Friend

USA
210 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  09:57:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send alienist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Uh, Ebone, your sample size is 3. It is not very skeptical of you to assume your personal experience can be applied to a whole population of people. Free-thinking independent women are not rare. There are several studies on dependent personality disorder (which is of course the extreme in terms of dependency). The prevalence of dependent personality is 1.7% of the population. There are of course discussions about the difference of prevalence of dependent personality of women compared to men.
Below is a copy of a summary of different studies.

http://www1.appstate.edu/~hillrw/DependPD/prevgend.html
Zimmerman and Coryell (1990) cite overall prevalence data for Dependent Personality Disorder as 1.7% with equal distribution between males and females. Bornstein (1993) cites the prevalence of Dependent Personality Disorder as 21% in psychiatric inpatients and as having the highest prevalence (8%) among Axis II disorders based on a 1983 community sample (pp.127-128). In Bornstein's comparison of prevalence studies he found that the base rate of Dependent Personality Disorder is much higher in women (11%) than in men (8%), (p.130). These gender differences may be based on real differences in the prevalence for women, however, some postulate they are due to bias on the part of the clinician and/or in the diagnostic criteria themselves.

Anderson, Sankis, and Widiger (2001) note that the authors of each edition of the DSM have been overwhelmingly male, 78% for the DSM-IV. They believe that it may be possible that these committees unconsciously pathologized those traits associated with femininity over those associated with masculinity (p.661). Anderson, Sankis and Widiger further found that there was a "significant difference across gender in the frequency of dependent criteria but not in pathology" (p.666). This can be interpreted to mean that clinicians may expect to see pathological levels of dependency more often in women, but see it as equally maladaptive in either gender.

Interestingly, Bornstein (1993) in his summation of numerous studies on dependency found that women self-report much higher levels of dependency than men. However, when projective measures are used, the levels are nearly equivalent (pp.46-47). Bornstein notes that this is most likely due to the high face validity of self-report measures, men are generally socialized to be less open to acknowledging dependency, especially on a potentially pathological level. Further, socialization patterns tend to support women overtly expressing their dependency needs versus an indirect expression in men; the former being reflected in the make up of most self-report measures (pp.47,50).

Although studies have been inconclusive as to whether the gender difference in diagnosis of Dependent Personality Disorder is a true reflection or due to bias, it seems that the DSM criteria "appear to be gender neutral with respect for their implications for maladaptivity" (Anderson, Sankis, and Widiger, 2001, p.668). There are two ways to interpret this finding; firstly it may be the way in which clinicians apply the DSM criteria.


In my work, I see plenty of men, as well as women, who have dependent personality traits
There are more women than men now in college and med school. This is a very indirect measure of independence and free thinking. one needs to have ability to think clearly and make many decisions to function as a doctor.

The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  10:04:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to take issue with the complement thing. Everyone, regardless of gender, enjoys being complimented on something. Granted, the compliments need to be time/place/level-of-familiarity appropriate, but no one rejects or resents a well placed compliment.

Obviously you don't tell a complete stranger or even a casual acquaintance that they are sexy/hot/something, but no one would be put off by a sincere complement about appearance (That is a very nice suit/necklace/haircut/random article of clothing or jewelry) would they? Regardless of who the person is, movement leader or homeless panhandler, male or female, it's even ok to compliment Canadians like Ebone.

I'd agree that it can be insulting to introduce a person with a complement about appearance, but this can also sometimes be appropriate. If you are in doubt, you just do a practice run of the intro with the person, get their approval.

Honestly, what I think this boils down to is inappropriate familiarity. A guy can't tell another guy's wife that she is sexy (unless you are gay) and not expect conflict. No one, of any gender, should be telling people of any other gender that they are attractive/sexy/whatever unless you have established the appropriate degree of familiarity in your relationship already. I'm not sure it rises to the level of misogyny in most cases, just ignorance.

Of course, these things vary with geography too. Acceptable custom can change from state to state, and definitely from culture to culture. Isn't it wrong of us to say that our concepts of appropriate familiarity and behavior should be the gold standard? Who is the douche in that scenario?


Ebone, I think you are right about the idea of trying to meet or getting to know women and starting off with something about how cute/sexy/hot they are. Women will probably tune you out at that point, and if they don't then they want something from you(not sex)! Smart guys just act normally, make small talk, draw them into a real conversation. The compliments are for the second date, when you know that they dressed up specifically for you, so at that point if you don't deliver a nice appropriate (no crudeness) compliment you are probably not getting a third date.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  10:05:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

Given that most of the peeps on this forum are straight men, what do you all think?
I have three thoughts.
#1. Could it be the female who wrote this have a justified bone to pick, with Douchy Misogynist? I think so.

#2. She writes,,
If you ever have any doubt at all, err on the side of keeping your mouth shut.
This is very good advice, I must remember that.

#3. * ****** ** *** ***** *** *****? SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  10:11:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dear Mr. Alienist,

A fascinating article. I am using those three examples to illustrate how a regular guy might come to his conclusions. I do not think the women in my life would be considered "pathological". I really don't know what to make of it. I'm just accustomed to taking care of my women folk.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  10:27:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ebone wrote:
Could the feeling that woman are more immature, less reasonable, and more emotional come from personal experience? I know that in my daily life it is my responsibility to attempt to balance the women in my life's (wife, mom, and little sis) emotional wackiness with the correct things that need to be done to keep them safe and secure. It is a tough job seeing as I have my own wife at home but also have a mother and sister that seem dependent on me. I can totally see how these conclusions are reached because I live with it every day. No matter how much I try to encourage the women in my life to be more independent it just doesn't seem to work.
What do you mean by more emotional, immature, and dependent? On emotional: men and women are equally emotional, but it definitely more socially acceptable and even encouraged for women to express their emotions more fully and publicly. On maturity: This is a new one for me. In what ways are women stereotypically immature? On dependence: I find that the unpaid contributions that women tend to make (although in a minority of families men are the ones making more of these contributions) are typically undervalued and in some cases not even acknowledged. I'm not going to make any assumptions about how things go in your household, Ebone, but this cartoon well-illustrates the sort of contributions that many women (and some men) make that are unpaid, and yet have real value: http://i.imgur.com/4twT6.jpg Women are more likely to make social plans than men, they are more likely to do housework and mind the nutritional needs of their family (even if the family is just one spouse) and they tend to provide a great deal of emotional support for others. All of this helps out all the people in their family circle, thus making it easier for the wage earners to earn those wages. From this study:

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletters/Harvard_Mens_Health_Watch/2010/July/marriage-and-mens-health

Unmarried, divorced, and widowed men don't eat as well as married men. They are less likely to exercise but are more likely to smoke, drink excessively, and engage in other risky behaviors. In contrast, married men are more likely to get regular medical care and to benefit from a higher standard of living. But while senior citizens who live with a spouse get better preventive care than those who live alone, elders who live with an adult child do not get better care.


I am lucky that my Granny was an independent and wise woman. It showed me that it is possible but the reality is that it is also exceedingly rare. No wonder these guys are so confused about what to do when they come across independent, freethinking women.
Independent, freethinking women are not rare. You seem to be basing that assertion on your own limited personal experiences. I'd also like to know what you mean by "independent".

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  10:30:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
originally posted by Dude
it's even ok to compliment Canadians like Ebone.



I am not Canadian. I'm pretty close to Canada and our local dialect is similar but I am not in Canada. Eh?


Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  10:39:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

originally posted by Dude
it's even ok to compliment Canadians like Ebone.



I am not Canadian. I'm pretty close to Canada and our local dialect is similar but I am not in Canada. Eh?



Michigan, Canada, there is a difference?

Also, I'm pretty sure alienist is a woman.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Edited by - Dude on 05/26/2011 11:26:25
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  10:40:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ebone wrote:
I'm just accustomed to taking care of my women folk.
Yeah, this is making me think that by "independent" you mean financially. So are these women in your life sitting around watching soaps and eating bon bons all day, or are they fairly constructive with their time? Again, don't know how it works in your life, but in many family structures certain individuals give money, time, or other resources to support other individuals, and that doesn't mean that the ones getting support are not independent. If someone doesn't have to earn money and their time can be perhaps better spend doing something that doesn't earn income, that can be a smart choice on their part. For instance, an aunt of mine was a housewife - totally dependent on her husband financially, but their children benefited from that choice. Then my uncle was struck severely ill and over a decade he slowly died. In that time his once financially dependent wife put herself through nursing school and by the time he died she was earning more money than he ever did. She was always capable of earning money, but it made more sense for her to not work when her husband was healthy and her children were very young. I know lots of people - both men and women - who don't work or work only part time while financially depending on a spouse, usually for the sake of rearing young children, but sometimes for the sake of perusing further higher education or a long-shot career, such as music, visual art, or acting. I know gallery owners who are only able to run their gallery because they have spouses making big money, because galleries typically have a very hard time turning a profit. People who have the good fortune of a spouse who can support them while they pursue other dreams and goals are risk takers since their fortune can run out any time. They are often doing what is more difficult, so it is rather shitty to disparage them.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  10:43:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

originally posted by Dude
it's even ok to compliment Canadians like Ebone.



I am not Canadian. I'm pretty close to Canada and our local dialect is similar but I am not in Canada. Eh?



Michigan, Canada, there is a difference?

Also, I'm pretty sure aliens is a woman.




One more state west. Titletown U.S.A.!

Edited to add Alienist, If I got your gender wrong I do apologize.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
Edited by - Ebone4rock on 05/26/2011 10:44:36
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  10:58:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dude wrote:
I have to take issue with the complement thing. Everyone, regardless of gender, enjoys being complimented on something. Granted, the compliments need to be time/place/level-of-familiarity appropriate, but no one rejects or resents a well placed compliment.
Wow, that's just totally not true. Lots of people can't take compliments, usually because of insecurity, but there are other reasons. Normally I'll take a compliment on my appearance well, but I have to admit that when it has happened at conference while some political or philosophical issue was being discussed, and I'm in a room full of men, usually older men, it does not make me feel flattered when some guy tells me he likes my dress or hair or thinks I'm a pretty woman. It makes me feel weird. I never really thought deeply about why that was, I tend to just blow off things that make me feel weird 'cause I'm a woman because I get used to it, but now that I'm thinking about it, the reason is that in such a context, those innocently-made compliments emphasize that I'm standing out from the crowd because I'm a woman. Here I am already feeling weird 'cause I'm the only woman in the room or one of very few, and almost everyone is staring at me for probably that reason, so yeah, when someone says "That's a really pretty dress." it only magnifies that weird, out-of-place feeling I already had. It isn't a big deal - like I said, I'm used to it, but don't tell me that I LIKE it. I think that is all Sasha is getting at.

Obviously you don't tell a complete stranger or even a casual acquaintance that they are sexy/hot/something,
But that's the point - lots of guys DO tell women they don't even know that they think they are hot. I've certainly had it happen to me.

but no one would be put off by a sincere complement about appearance (That is a very nice suit/necklace/haircut/random article of clothing or jewelry) would they?
How the heck am I supposed to know when someone is sincere or not? If I'm in a room full of men, mostly single men, and one of them compliments my hair or dress or jewelry - gee, something that men are just known for noticing??? As a straight male, do you go around admiring beautiful dresses and jewelry in storefront windows? And at the same time I'm seeing the goofy smiles and glances that some guys just can't seem to help to let off when they are around a woman they find sexually appealing, and I'm supposed to just ignore all those cues and just trust that the compliment really is just about the item of clothing's aesthetic appeal? Give me a break. The point Sasha is making is that even if your compliment is meant innocently, it probably won't be taken that way by the woman, and for good reason. Try to see it from our point of view.

I'm not sure it rises to the level of misogyny in most cases, just ignorance.
I agree. I think "misogyny" is way too strong a word for what Sasha is talking about. That's really the only problem I have with the article, but it is a big problem. Really he's talking about not coming off as a douchebag. Misogyny is something else and much much worse, and it shouldn't be watered down by being used to label behavior merely based on ignorance. Part of the reason I can easily blow off feeling weirded out by guys at conferences is because I do constantly remind myself that they probably mean well and are deep down really nice guys who love women. I really do believe that.


"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  11:05:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

Ebone wrote:
I'm just accustomed to taking care of my women folk.
Yeah, this is making me think that by "independent" you mean financially. So are these women in your life sitting around watching soaps and eating bon bons all day, or are they fairly constructive with their time? Again, don't know how it works in your life, but in many family structures certain individuals give money, time, or other resources to support other individuals, and that doesn't mean that the ones getting support are not independent. If someone doesn't have to earn money and their time can be perhaps better spend doing something that doesn't earn income, that can be a smart choice on their part. For instance, an aunt of mine was a housewife - totally dependent on her husband financially, but their children benefited from that choice. Then my uncle was struck severely ill and over a decade he slowly died. In that time his once financially dependent wife put herself through nursing school and by the time he died she was earning more money than he ever did. She was always capable of earning money, but it made more sense for her to not work when her husband was healthy and her children were very young. I know lots of people - both men and women - who don't work or work only part time while financially depending on a spouse, usually for the sake of rearing young children, but sometimes for the sake of perusing further higher education or a long-shot career, such as music, visual art, or acting. I know gallery owners who are only able to run their gallery because they have spouses making big money, because galleries typically have a very hard time turning a profit. People who have the good fortune of a spouse who can support them while they pursue other dreams and goals are risk takers since their fortune can run out any time. They are often doing what is more difficult, so it is rather shitty to disparage them.


No, I do not mean financially. I'm talking about just about everything else other than financially. No, my womens are not sitting around all day. My wife and I work the same long hours (I'm dicking the dog a bit today though) My little sis is also a career woman. Ma....I'm not sure what she does all day other than paint her paintings. (by the way, it seems that you are an artist also. I might hit you up for some advice on pimping my Ma's paintings if it is OK with you)) I do understand your position and I do agree with everything you said.

Lets see if I can somehow clarify what I am talking about.

It seems every day I have to sift through emotional nonsense and try to pick it apart from the facts so that I can help make decisions for all of them. I'm talking everything from what color to paint the living room to what the best decision would be for financing a purchase. There are so many things that to me there should be no emotion about. It seems that my womens have to have feeling about EVERYTHING even though there is no need for feelings on some subjects.

Gosh I need to figure out how to articulate what I am thinking about.

edited to rephrase the last sentence.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
Edited by - Ebone4rock on 05/26/2011 11:17:29
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2011 :  11:08:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe the compliments in a context where intellectual matters are the focus of the gathering are also especially awkward because back-handed compliments are frequently used against women during debates, and it can make some women suspicious of compliments in that context. For instance, once at a party I got into a long (about a half hour) debate about politics with a man about 15 years older than me. The whole conversation he treated me how I imagine he'd treat any man, vigorously debating his side. Then his wife showed up and told him it was time to go home, and we had to cut off our debate. I don't know if this guy is a bonafide misogynist or if he was just so worked up that he temporarily turned into an asshole, but his parting words to me were to gesture up and down at my body (I was wearing a colorful party dress and my hair was dyed blue, and in my late 20's) and say, "You're a pretty young woman, what with your dress and hair and all. You take care now." From his tone he was OBVIOUSLY making an ad hom attack, basically discounting my arguments based on the fact that I was young, female, and present myself rather whimsically. Thankfully I'm a woman with a fair amount of self esteem and thick skin, so I just took that as pathetic on his part. But it is that sort of crap that convinces a lot of women to not even get into discussions about serious and controversial matters. It doesn't mean they don't have strong and well-thought-out opinions.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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