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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
 Posted - 07/10/2011 : 20:38:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
I mean, seriously, listen to Dave_W. He is literally saying that being male is "the definitive" indicator of sexual assault. |
The hell I did, hypocrite. I said that it's the definitive indicator of the possibility of being the future perpetrator of sexual assault. Against adult women.
Find a report of a mentally healthy adult woman who was raped (outside of prison or other confining institution) by a stranger who happened to also be an adult woman, and the "definitive" bit will be falsified. I couldn't find any such thing, and not for lack of trying.
Until someone somewhere comes up with some evidence of woman-on-woman stranger rape, we will be able to say without hesitation that if a healthy adult woman is raped by a stranger, a man will have done it. That's not sexism, that's just what the evidence appears to show.| Just because a behavior only occurs in one sex does not mean you can predict who is going to engage in that behavior. |
We can predict that only people of that one sex will engage in it. It follows that if people of that sex want to put those around them at ease, they will refrain from giving hints (even mistakenly) that they might be thinking about engaging in that behavior. This should have been unremarkable, but it "offends" you.| Also, woman v woman sexual assault is merely very rare, not totally absent. |
Where is your evidence to support that assertion, hypocrite?| According to Dave_W's reasoning that is a useful predictive tool! |
It could be, if one were to calculate the probabilities of being assaulted in various situations, one could take situationally appropriate precautions. If people start acting creepy, one could increase one's wariness of being assaulted. Seems like such situational awareness is a natural thing, to me. It could be improved if we had good statistics instead of only experiential guesswork upon which to base our caution.
Following your "logic," however, you would point out that not all dark alleys hide muggers, so to advise anyone to avoid dark alleys in a big city is nothing more than a symptom of totally inappropriate and irrational bias against alleys (or darkness). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2011 : 21:46:39 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
Find a report of a mentally healthy adult woman who was raped (outside of prison or other confining institution) by a stranger who happened to also be an adult woman, and the "definitive" bit will be falsified. I couldn't find any such thing, and not for lack of trying.
Until someone somewhere comes up with some evidence of woman-on-woman stranger rape, we will be able to say without hesitation that if a healthy adult woman is raped by a stranger, a man will have done it. That's not sexism, that's just what the evidence appears to show. |
Less than 5 seconds with google:
Woman rapes woman in a public park.
Women's activist group, publishes books nationally, has a section of their website dealing with women v women sexual assault/rape.
Woman rapes woman in hotel bathroom.
Woman tortures and rapes man.
Woman who was convicted of incitement to rape (and genocide) by the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR).
Woman attacks and sexually assaults two other women in an alley.
There are many more. If you add in the pedophile women the number of rapes and sexual assaults goes up significantly. While female sex offenders are more rare than male sex offenders, they do not appear to be as rare as I had thought.
| We can predict that only people of that one sex will engage in it. |
Wrong.
Where is your evidence to support that assertion, hypocrite?
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Calm down man. And see the above links.
I said that it's the definitive indicator of the possibility of being the future perpetrator of sexual assault. Against adult women.
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That sentence is useless, it would still be useless if it weren't based on a false assumption. Even if 100% of all sexual assaults were perpetrated by men you could still not use gender to determine the possibility that a person will commit a sexual assault beyond ruling out women.
| The hell I did, hypocrite. |
I accept your apology and retraction of your previous comments. The one you are now obliged to make, that is.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 07/10/2011 21:47:33 |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 04:02:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I'd say you took a side in your blog.
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I was going for balance, but if it came off as partisan, I'd be happy to throw in some more jabs at Dawkins to even it up a bit. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 04:28:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Kil
If Phil wrote a good book, why not read it? There is no requirement for you to agree with everything he says in order to read a good book on a subject that he is an expert on.
That was my point.
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A point which escapes Rebecca Watson.
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Well... She was the target of his comments after all. Maybe she's a little bitter. I know I would be. And I bet if he offers an apology, she will let it go.
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That remains to be seen, doesn't it?
Edited to add:
| Well... She was the target of his comments after all. |
Are you absolutely sure about that?
I went back and re-read Richard Dawkins' responses that were linked by Phil Plait, and in none of them can I read a line specifically addressed to Rebecca, even though he mention her by name as participant in the original event. To me, it looks like he's addressing the femi-nazi-squad that cries misogyny and perv.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 07/11/2011 05:34:56 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 04:51:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Funny? Where is it that Watson asked for no men to ride on an elevator with her? All she asked is that men not hit on her in an elevator (and probably any very secluded space.) And especially not follow her back to an elevator at four in the morning after she said she was tired and going to sleep, (a preemptive "no") which was after her talk about not being a sexually objectified, among other feminist issues, earlier in the evening. Your analogy is false. |
I get it that she felt the situation uncomfortable. I bet he felt quite awkward too.
She said in the video you linked to that she felt uncomfortable, and asked people (men) not to do do that. I can see why she felt compelled to say something about it.
The problem is that a bunch of femi-nazies pounced on this opportunity to villify the elevator guy by increasingly dial up the language to the point where he's a sexual predator and potential rapist just waiting to happen. What's the (misogynist-related) word for hatred of men?
And Plait jumped on the bandwagon and spelled it all out for us. And from the initial comments from Rebecca which started out by just saying "please don't do that" she is now also taking advantage of the femi-nazi squad's cries about sexist behaviours, she has started to alter her own language to reflect that.
Suddenly, the elevator guy truly is a perv in her eyes, even though he started out just being an insecure guy who were waiting for the only opportunity he could get to ask her without people around to interrupt him.
The request by the guy, as initially retold by Rebecca herself, seemed to be to be rather respectful. Do you disagree with that?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 05:10:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dude
So it would be acceptable in a different setting? |
Yes, like not after she'd announced that she was tired and was going to go to sleep. Like not in a place where she was mechanically trapped. Do you really not know how to appropriately start wooing a woman? |
Apparently the elevator guy had a lack in social skills which prevented him from recognizing the inappropriateness of hitting on her in the elevator. If that is what he was really doing... We don't know and just guessing about it, it seems.
My point is that it is just as likely that he was totally unaware of the male privilage he has been assumed to assert. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 07:56:35 [Permalink]
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Mab
The problem is that a bunch of femi-nazies pounced on this opportunity to villify the elevator guy by increasingly dial up the language to the point where he's a sexual predator and potential rapist just waiting to happen. What's the (misogynist-related) word for hatred of men? |
Fem-nazies is a Rush Limbaugh coined term. But putting that aside, the dial didn't get turned up until several men and Dawkins attacked Watson for saying what should be obvious to any man who is the least bit concerned about feminist issues, and acting appropriately with regard to not doing those things that make woman uncomfortable. Watson made a simple enough request and look what it's turned into. It's hard for me to believe that just asking not to be hit on in an elevator at four in the morning after talking about this very issue would cause so many men to react negatively at the very notion that maybe they need to be a little more sensitive in their approach to hitting on woman. Instead they went ballistic. Why?
As for the guy not knowing what's appropriate, that's exactly what Watson was addressing. Watson didn't vilify the guy. She was just offering a lesson in what not to do for those who don't really know.
Why some men are objecting so vehemently to her little suggestion puzzles me. And it probably angers those who see the response to a reasonable request attacked and Watson vilified for bringing it up. Frankly, this is crazy. Men don't want to be told what to do? Fine. They can go ahead and act boorish and see where it gets them. Not that it matters much but they just look like jerks to me.
The simple truth is woman are more vulnerable to attack, and they are aware of it all the time. That's not to say that Watson thought the guy was going to attack her, but there was no way of knowing, once he ignored her initial wishes to just head to her room and go to sleep. That's the creepy part. If he actually found her interesting, which means he heard what she had to say, why would he then ignore it all? If he had said, "I find your ideas interesting and maybe we can grab a coffee tomorrow and talk about it some more" I'm sure she wouldn't have even mentioned the encounter. And who knows? Maybe the guy would have had coffee with her the next day (but probably not in his room.)
And yeah. Woman do get raped. And they get dised and so on. Michelle tells me that when she is out alone, it's always in the back of her mind, simply because some men don't give a crap about boundary's. She has dealt with inappropriate advances all her life. And clearly, judging by many of the responses, some men don't want to know about boundary's. What's with that?
So if there has been some push back from the feminist atheists after reading some pretty stupid and comments, why would you be surprised? This as escalated because men don't want to be told what to do. At least some men have made that perfectly clear. They think this is all about them and not about how a woman might feel in a given situation. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 09:14:16 [Permalink]
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When I did a quick search I got results too as opposed to Daves zero results. I do know for a fact that the same exact search terms into a Google search will give different results based on the algorithm that Google uses, which incorporates a users browsing history among other 'secrete' variables. I find it impossible to believe that Dave didn't do a search before posting the challenge. He is detailed.
I have experienced this before using identical searches on different computers. I wonder what is really going on when that happens, as in this case. Seeing this myself and knowing that it is the case I also wonder how a society can be manipulated by utilizing this ability. However that is a whole other topic. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 09:22:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Less than 5 seconds with google: |
Apparently, it takes you only five seconds to lose the context. I added all sorts of qualifiers to limit it to situations like Watson found herself in. You, after all, are claiming that any fears she might have had (which aren't in evidence) are unfounded, presumably because women in elevators are raped by men and women in more-or-less equal numbers. Being afraid only of men in elevators, you said, is sexist (nevermind that finding someone creepy isn't the same as being afraid that someone is going to sexually assault you, you can keep on ignoring that pesky fact).
But let's see what you've come up with...I wish I could read Swedish. But I'll give you this one.And it's primarily about domestic sexual abuse in the LBGT community, not strangers.Charges dropped last month, but the rape occurred when consenual kissing went too far. Not analogous to strangers on an elevator.This counts as woman-on-woman rape how, exactly?A woman inciting men to rape? Are you claiming rape by proxy?The victims were teenagers.Many more irrelevant examples? Good for you.
You did meet the challenge, by finding a single reported woman-on-woman stranger rape somewhat analogous to Watson's situation (even though the details are in Swedish). Bravo. Meanwhile, about 10% of men have attempted rape, committed rape or sexual assault. You're seriously saying that women should take equal amounts of caution when alone with a strange man as when alone with a strange woman? (Otherwise sexism!)
I will revise my statement: if you find a female adult rape victim who's otherwise mentally healthy, it's extremely likely that the perpetrator will be a man. So likely, in fact, that if police start looking for female perps without other evidence, it would be a massively irresponsible waste of resources. Again, this isn't sexism, but follows from the evidence presented here.| If you add in the pedophile women the number of rapes and sexual assaults goes up significantly. While female sex offenders are more rare than male sex offenders, they do not appear to be as rare as I had thought. |
Yes, we all know that women perpetrate about 10% of all sexual assaults, but suggesting that Rebecca Watson is a potential victim of child abuse is ludicrous.| We can predict that only people of that one sex will engage in it. |
Wrong. |
Again, you've forgotten the context. You said, "Just because a behavior only occurs in one sex does not mean you can predict who is going to engage in that behavior." Given that premise (that there exists a behavior that occurs only in one sex), we can indeed predict that only people of that one sex will engage in it. It's a trivial prediction, but it's not wrong.| Even if 100% of all sexual assaults were perpetrated by men you could still not use gender to determine the possibility that a person will commit a sexual assault beyond ruling out women. |
Duh. What the hell do you think I've been saying here? Oh, that's right: you stupidly thought that I was saying that being male is an indicator that one is a sexual predator, ignoring completely the words "possible" or "potential." But "ruling out women" is exactly what you were claiming was sexism run rampant. It's a shame that you're so blinded by bias that you couldn't see that you just agreed with what I've been saying.You expect an apology in return for doing what you should have done in the first place, hypocrite? Don't hold your breath.| ...and retraction of your previous comments. The one you are now obliged to make, that is. |
No retraction is needed. The fact that you were a hypocrite last night isn't changed by you doing one thing (out of several) that you needed to do to stop being a hypocrite. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 09:30:46 [Permalink]
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| Aye, those aren't TRUE Scotsmen.... I mean female rapists. |
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 07/11/2011 09:38:44 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 09:34:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
The problem is that a bunch of femi-nazies pounced on this opportunity to villify the elevator guy by increasingly dial up the language to the point where he's a sexual predator and potential rapist just waiting to happen. |
When I started reading about this, it was the feminists complaining about other people claiming that Watson was accusing Elevator Guy of rape, etc. In other words, I have the exact opposite impression than you do.| What's the (misogynist-related) word for hatred of men? |
Misogynist.And from the initial comments from Rebecca which started out by just saying "please don't do that" she is now also taking advantage of the femi-nazi squad's cries about sexist behaviours, she has started to alter her own language to reflect that.
Suddenly, the elevator guy truly is a perv in her eyes... |
Where's evidence of that?!
Also:Apparently the elevator guy had a lack in social skills which prevented him from recognizing the inappropriateness of hitting on her in the elevator. If that is what he was really doing... We don't know and just guessing about it, it seems.
My point is that it is just as likely that he was totally unaware of the male privilage he has been assumed to assert. |
The intentions of EG and whether he was a psychopath or just socially inept are irrelevant. Whether he asserted his privilege on purpose or accidentally doesn't matter.
The take-home lesson was supposed to just be that guys should think about how their actions will make them look in the eyes of women. There's nothing particularly shocking about that, unless you're used to getting away with being a pig. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 09:38:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Aye, those aren't TRUE Scotsman. I mean rapes. |
Oh, forcryingoutloud. If Rebecca Watson needs to be worried about a stranger on an elevator turning out to be her mother who whisks her back in time to six years of age and does nasty things to her, then you need a vacation. I provided a stat on any sort of sexual assault perpetrated by women, but most of that is irrelevant to the situation under discussion. Ridiculously so. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 09:40:53 [Permalink]
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| Can you give 5 cases of a woman being raped in an elevator? |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 10:15:37 [Permalink]
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So I have to find cases of a woman raping a woman in an elevator now?
And 18 is an adult in almost every country I am aware of Dave. While 18 may be technically be a teenager, in this country you can vote, drive, join the military, inherit, and all that other adult stuff.
I included the woman convicted of crimes against humanity, one of which was the incitement to rape, because it is an example of a woman demonstrating abhorent and brutal behavior on a mass scale.
Every one of my examples meets your demand for woman v woman (strangers) rape. Even the one that started out as kissing, they were strangers. I find your dismissal of that one rather disturbing, actually.
But you go ahead and continue to move the goalposts. You have taken an indefensible potition and you know it, and you apparently have become incapable of acknowledging your own errors.
That's a pretty fucking ungly spot for a skeptic to find themself in, isn't it?
Dave_W said:
You're seriously saying that women should take equal amounts of caution when alone with a strange man as when alone with a strange woman? (Otherwise sexism!)
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If you can find where I said that, then you should post it. This whole bit about female rapists was introduced unto this thread by you.
My point is that being male is not predictive of the chance you will commit a sexual assault. It is simple sexism to make the claim that male = potential rapist.
Watson feeling creeped out by a guy who didn't do anything but speak some fairly innocuous words is a manifestation of that sexism. It is exactly the same as being afraid of black people because they are black. The guy didn't say anything crude, he didn't invade her personal space, he didn't press the issue beyond her rejection. So the person with the problem here is Watson. She is allowing cultural bias to override skepticism and critical thinking.
Dr hysterical Plait, who elevated this to "potential sexual assault", just needs to go home and take his meds.
And you, Dave_W, if you really think all you need to know to predict the chance of sexual assault is the gender of the person, you are as wrong as Plait. You need to step back and give yourself a chance to think it through. Hint- You are failing at inductive reasoning.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 10:23:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Can you give 5 cases of a woman being raped in an elevator?
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Here is a video titled "raped in elevator". It looks like she was smiling ofter. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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I do not like Rebecca Watson (aka skepchick)
