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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2011 :  06:29:27  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it finally happened. My best pal of over two decades has decided to dedicate his life to Jesus full time. He broke the news to us last night at band rehearsal. He is being cool enough to stick with us and play any shows we line up until we find a suitable replacement drummer.

I had no idea that I would become so emotional about this. I feel like I am losing my right arm. He and I have been side by side since we were 18 years old.

It was incredibly difficult for me to keep my mouth shut last night as he was explaining why he had such a revelation. It seems that he has a great belief in third or fourth hand accounts of the healing powers of Jesus. One of the stories he told was a re-telling of a story that one of his Dad's fellow church members told about a paraplegic man who was miraculously healed because a nice lady saw him on the street and started praying for him. A crowd of a hundred people gathered and also started praying. This paraplegic man just suddenly stood up and walked right out of his wheelchair! My buddy's exact words were " You can't deny that Jesus is real when things like that happen!". I sat there with clenched teeth thinking " Are you fucking kidding me? You did not witness this, your Dad did not witness this, your Dad's friend did not even witness this and you fucking beleive that it is undeniable proof of the power of Jesus?!" FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK!!!!

How the Hell are you supposed to get it through someones skull that this shit is nonsense?!?!?!

Thanks for allowing me to emote.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2011 :  06:47:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
How the Hell are you supposed to get it through someones skull that this shit is nonsense?!?!?!
By speaking up.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2011 :  06:51:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm sorry for your loss.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26000 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2011 :  06:54:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

How the Hell are you supposed to get it through someones skull that this shit is nonsense?!?!?!
Ask him why God hates amputees.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2011 :  06:58:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Ebone4rock
How the Hell are you supposed to get it through someones skull that this shit is nonsense?!?!?!
By speaking up.




I gotcha and I agree...but I could easily drive him right out immediately if I challenged him like that. We have gigs lined up and $$$ to be made. Besides that he is my best friend and I don't want to lose him permanantly.

Rock and hard place I tell ya......

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2011 :  07:48:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

[I gotcha and I agree...but I could easily drive him right out immediately if I challenged him like that. We have gigs lined up and $$$ to be made. Besides that he is my best friend and I don't want to lose him permanantly.
Still, if he is your best friend he should be able to handle that you think that he is out on a limb on this issue.

I suggest you reason in steps. Let him have his faith. Let him believe in this anecdote but show him why you can't accept it as evidence of anything.

Good luck! Good friendship is something you should not give up on to easily.
Edited by - Starman on 09/08/2011 07:50:13
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alienist
Skeptic Friend

USA
210 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2011 :  09:10:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send alienist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do you know why your friend needs to believe this kind of story? Or why this kind of story is so important to him?

The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2011 :  09:46:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Ebone4rock
How the Hell are you supposed to get it through someones skull that this shit is nonsense?!?!?!
By speaking up.




I gotcha and I agree...but I could easily drive him right out immediately if I challenged him like that. We have gigs lined up and $$$ to be made. Besides that he is my best friend and I don't want to lose him permanantly.

Rock and hard place I tell ya......


Perhaps after a long time talking to him and finding out what else happened.

The miraculous stories convincing him to believe is a cover. Something else deeply personal frightened the living daylights out of him. Something he doesn't want out.

The miraculous stories as reason is the lie he tells himself. Find out about how going to the Bible study/church makes him feel. Find out about any new hotties in his life who are part of this church. Find out if he thinks the church has something on him. Did he step out on his significant other and is using this as a means to keep her/get her back by proving that he's changed?

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2011 :  10:15:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by alienist

Do you know why your friend needs to believe this kind of story? Or why this kind of story is so important to him?


I have no clue. The story I am about to tell in reply to Val's post may shed some light.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2011 :  10:44:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Ebone4rock
How the Hell are you supposed to get it through someones skull that this shit is nonsense?!?!?!
By speaking up.




I gotcha and I agree...but I could easily drive him right out immediately if I challenged him like that. We have gigs lined up and $$$ to be made. Besides that he is my best friend and I don't want to lose him permanantly.

Rock and hard place I tell ya......


Perhaps after a long time talking to him and finding out what else happened.

The miraculous stories convincing him to believe is a cover. Something else deeply personal frightened the living daylights out of him. Something he doesn't want out.

The miraculous stories as reason is the lie he tells himself. Find out about how going to the Bible study/church makes him feel. Find out about any new hotties in his life who are part of this church. Find out if he thinks the church has something on him. Did he step out on his significant other and is using this as a means to keep her/get her back by proving that he's changed?


Very perceptive of you Val.

This started after he went on a three day bender during the New Year holiday. I was with him on the second day and did not notice anything out of the ordinary. The next time we saw him the following Thursday is when he announced that he quit drinking and was going to start going to church again. We immediately figured that something bad happened during that time.

One thing about my buddy is that he has some...I guess I would call them...effeminate ways about him. From the first day I met him I considered the possibility that he might be gay. I can't even count how many times over the years that people asked either me or our other friends if he was gay. I even ran into people that thought he and I were a gay couple! He has never been able to keep a girlfriend for more than a couple of months. He and I are very different in that I always speak what is on my mind but he usually keeps things to himself.

The very first thought in our minds was that " He must have woken up with a guy!"

I seriously wish that he was just gay. I am 100% tolerant of gayness. I am 0% tolerant of religion.

His parents went through some seriously wierd religious phases when he was growing up. He has always been kind of fucked up when it comes to religion. Over the last 20 years there have been a couple of times when he decided he was going back to church but those episodes never lasted more than a couple of weeks.

I kinda feel bad that the only explanation that I can come up with is that he is trying to hide his homosexuality. What if he really isn't gay and I am just being a douche?

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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alienist
Skeptic Friend

USA
210 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2011 :  12:13:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send alienist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The best thing to do for a friend is to listen and to let him know you are always there to listen to him. It is the one of the best "secrets" of therapy

The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2011 :  12:29:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock



This started after he went on a three day bender during the New Year holiday. I was with him on the second day and did not notice anything out of the ordinary.

Were three day benders the ordinary for him?

The next time we saw him the following Thursday is when he announced that he quit drinking and was going to start going to church again.

Is he still not drinking?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2011 :  12:34:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bill, here is some back story.

edited to add

I just realized there is not much new info there.

Yes, he has been a heavy partier for a long time. He has not had a drop since New Year.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
Edited by - Ebone4rock on 09/08/2011 12:40:24
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  05:40:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock



Yes, he has been a heavy partier for a long time. He has not had a drop since New Year.


Well people who are happy in life do not go on three day benders. It sounds like your friend was living self-destructively for a span of time and this was just the crowing moment of how he has been living his life for years. In short, your friend was hitting rock bottom. This is where many conversion examples begin.

Many musicians go down this road. Many start in their youth and the partying and womanizing, basically living like a rock star, is thrilling and exciting to them, not to even mention liberating. Rebelling against parents, school and society it's every budding rock stars dream. But by the time the aging rock star hits 25, 30, 35... they begin to realize that the parents and school they used to rebel against are no longer around and rebelling against society when you are 30 is fine, if you don't mind working for minimum wage your whole life. All of sudden the parties are not as fun as they used to be and much of the old gang has gotten married or moved on in life in some other capacity. The aged rocker is now left with memories of his youth a unknown future and his drug of choice as his best friend. Thousands if not millions travel this road while searching for that neon rainbow.

Here is an Example of musicians, and these are very successful musicians, who have lived the life of rebellion and decadence, while getting paid rather nicely for it I might add, who came out on the other end as empty and desperate men.

It sounds like your friend has come from a very dark place and so my advice to you, if you want to remain friends and involved in his life, is to support him in whatever he claims has rescued him from his terrible darkness. You have said that he has went back to church before only for this to last for just a few weeks. Fine, if this is just a phase he will appreciate you as a friend for supporting him in his different phases of life. But I would walk gently if you decide to challenge the friend on his new found Christianity. Your friend has just come out of a dark dark pit of which his friends, family or the pleasure of this life could not rescue him. He was saved from the dark pit by his faith in Jesus Christ as his personal Savior. If you start to challenge that which saved him from his dark pit your friend may feel forced into deciding between old friends and his new Savior. One has saved him from darkness and one has not.

Again, if your choice is to challenge the reality of the resurrection of Jesus Christ have at it. It's my belief that the reality of his resurrection can stand on its own two feet. But if your choice is to preserve the friendship, in spite of your friend going Christian on you, then I would support the man in what has saved him. Just my two cents.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 09/09/2011 06:23:40
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  05:52:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Ebone4rock
How the Hell are you supposed to get it through someones skull that this shit is nonsense?!?!?!
By speaking up.




I gotcha and I agree...but I could easily drive him right out immediately if I challenged him like that. We have gigs lined up and $$$ to be made. Besides that he is my best friend and I don't want to lose him permanantly.

Rock and hard place I tell ya......


Perhaps after a long time talking to him and finding out what else happened.

The miraculous stories convincing him to believe is a cover. Something else deeply personal frightened the living daylights out of him. Something he doesn't want out.

The miraculous stories as reason is the lie he tells himself. Find out about how going to the Bible study/church makes him feel. Find out about any new hotties in his life who are part of this church. Find out if he thinks the church has something on him. Did he step out on his significant other and is using this as a means to keep her/get her back by proving that he's changed?


Very perceptive of you Val.

This started after he went on a three day bender during the New Year holiday. I was with him on the second day and did not notice anything out of the ordinary. The next time we saw him the following Thursday is when he announced that he quit drinking and was going to start going to church again. We immediately figured that something bad happened during that time.

One thing about my buddy is that he has some...I guess I would call them...effeminate ways about him. From the first day I met him I considered the possibility that he might be gay. I can't even count how many times over the years that people asked either me or our other friends if he was gay. I even ran into people that thought he and I were a gay couple! He has never been able to keep a girlfriend for more than a couple of months. He and I are very different in that I always speak what is on my mind but he usually keeps things to himself.

The very first thought in our minds was that " He must have woken up with a guy!"

I seriously wish that he was just gay. I am 100% tolerant of gayness. I am 0% tolerant of religion.

His parents went through some seriously wierd religious phases when he was growing up. He has always been kind of fucked up when it comes to religion. Over the last 20 years there have been a couple of times when he decided he was going back to church but those episodes never lasted more than a couple of weeks.

I kinda feel bad that the only explanation that I can come up with is that he is trying to hide his homosexuality. What if he really isn't gay and I am just being a douche?


I wouldn't confront him with the possibility of homosexuality.

Supposition can lead you on a tangent that isn't there.

I have met some somewhat effeminante guys who were heterosexual.

You can try to start with a tack that expresses your doubts that such miraculous feats would convince him to be part of that religion. Go on to expressing that he sounds scared about something and whatever he tells you that you won't judge him. Let him open up about what really scared him.

Calling bullshit on the reason he gives is a lot more recievable than questioning his sexuality. (Especially if he was of a subsect that was fiercely anti-gay. If he is actually homosexual, he is a self-loathing one spurred on by the messages he has heard from his church and family over decades.)

Homosexuals have to come out of the closet on their own time. When they feel safe to do so.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  06:53:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott
Well people who are happy in life do not go on three day benders.


Well sure they do! This is Wisconsin after all! Totally normal behavior here. If my body could still handle it I would be doing it on holiday weekends too.

But anyway....

It sounds like your friend was living self-destructively for a span of time and this was just the crowing moment of how he has been living his life for years. In short, your friend was hitting rock bottom. This is where many conversion examples begin.



I agree with you analysis. He just went from one extreme to the other. We had been concerned about his drinking for a long time. it got to a point where the quality of people he was associating with went way downhill and he was being taken advantage of by some people.

The example of the Korn band members you mentioned has actually been a source of inspiration for him. We had high hopes after he started telling about these guys because it sounded like he was no longer considering leaving the band. But that changed again.

if you want to remain friends and involved in his life, is to support him in whatever he claims has rescued him from his terrible darkness.


Agreed to a point. I am glad to support his quitting drinking but I cannot support the full blown religiousness he is exhibiting. He knows exactly how I feel about religion so there is a huge disconnect between us with regards to it. All I can do is be his friend when he needs me..thats about it.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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