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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  07:02:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

I wouldn't confront him with the possibility of homosexuality.



Too late. I already did on Wednesday. Lightheartedly though. I just asked " Well, could you be gay?". He got all discombobulated and it was pretty funny. He has always come off as a homophobe (whereas I most definitly do not) so it can be pretty fun fucking with him.

You can try to start with a tack that expresses your doubts that such miraculous feats would convince him to be part of that religion. Go on to expressing that he sounds scared about something and whatever he tells you that you won't judge him. Let him open up about what really scared him.



I will as soon as I see that he is receptive to a discussion about it. Right now he keeps us all at arms length.

Calling bullshit on the reason he gives is a lot more recievable than questioning his sexuality. (Especially if he was of a subsect that was fiercely anti-gay. If he is actually homosexual, he is a self-loathing one spurred on by the messages he has heard from his church and family over decades.)

Homosexuals have to come out of the closet on their own time. When they feel safe to do so.


Agreed, but it is hard to resist fucking with him.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  07:21:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I started reading this thread yesterday, but wasn't yet sure what to say, and I'm glad I waited. Val communicated exactly what I would have said, and perhaps more succinctly that I would have said it.

I have a sort of similar story, of a cousin who was really out of control with partying and found "salvation" in religion. She was one of those girls that grew up really pretty but also had a learning disability so she got bad grades in school. Getting only positive re-enforcement from her good looks, she acted dumb, lost her virginity early, dated older guys who were shady characters, and was even date raped at 16 (although she would never call it rape and feels she should share the blame for putting herself in the situation, from her description rape is EXACTLY what happened.) Then at 17 she got sucked in by one of those non-denominational churches that targets youth with concerts and making Christianity seem hip and fun. Soon she was born again and every time I've spoken with her since, 75% of what she talks about is her religion. She managed to work it into every damned conversation, it's insufferable. She got married at 21 to a guy who was the same age, and they've been happily married for 4 years and about to have their first kid. They both have jobs making a decent living and live with his dad in a house they will inherit, so I guess you could say it is a clear religious conversion success story. She even manages to do enough double think to maintain a healthy relationship with her gay brother (Although it is clear that she is totally immersed in a community that is strongly homophobic and sexist.) I have no idea how much her religion is protecting her from a destructive lifestyle and how much it is harmful. But that doesn't matter, because it is her life and I still love her, so the best I can do is only speak up in ways that aren't going to be so offensive to her or emotionally provocative that they will only serve to destroy our relationship. For instance, when she goes on about submitting to her husband and tithing to her church, I share how my lifestyle and relationships are difference, but I refrain from making judgments against her chosen lifestyle.

But I'm not super close with that cousin as you are with your friend, Ebone, and so I imagine this is much more painful for you to watch. Also, IF the root of your friend's issues (and I agree with Bill that his excessive drinking and partying are signs of something wrong) is that he's gay and can't come to terms, conservative Christianity is probably in the long-run going to mess him up more. I mean, at least he won't end up dead in a pool of his own vomit or killed in a drunk driving accident, but I don't know how to measure that up against a lifetime of unnecessary confusion, self-hatred, and deprivation from meaningful romantic and sexual relationships. But there's nothing you can do about it other than do your best to be his friend despite this change.

I agree that asking him about his sexuality probably would do more harm than good. But you can at least make it clear in an indirect way that you are not homophobic, so if he is gay and ever deals with it, hopefully he'll identify you as someone safe to come out to.

And if the issues are something else, maybe his newfound religion will help him find the sort of gratification in life that he doesn't have the ability to find on his own. It really might be a beneficial thing for him in many ways. One really insidious things about conservative Christianity in America is that it can and does often benefit individuals, although it is clearly destructive to society at large. So while I'd love to see the damn institution go extinct, I have to acknowledge that it probably has kept my cousin from a miserable, destructive life. (Then again, how do I know that in the absence of Christianity, she wouldn't have found salvation in something else?)

In the words of Janeane Garfalo: "It's human nature to need a religious crutch, and I don't begrudge anyone that. I just don't need one."

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  07:26:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Too late. I already did on Wednesday. Lightheartedly though. I just asked " Well, could you be gay?". He got all discombobulated and it was pretty funny. He has always come off as a homophobe (whereas I most definitly do not) so it can be pretty fun fucking with him.
Oh, well at least it didn't go badly. Nice that you are still close enough that you can "fuck with him" without him getting really upset.

Men are funny.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  07:44:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

Too late. I already did on Wednesday. Lightheartedly though. I just asked " Well, could you be gay?". He got all discombobulated and it was pretty funny. He has always come off as a homophobe (whereas I most definitly do not) so it can be pretty fun fucking with him.
Oh, well at least it didn't go badly. Nice that you are still close enough that you can "fuck with him" without him getting really upset.

Men are funny.


He deserves all the fucking with that he gets. You outta hear some of the homophobic shit that comes out of his mouth. What makes it even more funny is the fact that if anyone is in the closet it is him!

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  08:16:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

I wouldn't confront him with the possibility of homosexuality.



Too late. I already did on Wednesday. Lightheartedly though. I just asked " Well, could you be gay?". He got all discombobulated and it was pretty funny. He has always come off as a homophobe (whereas I most definitly do not) so it can be pretty fun fucking with him.

You can try to start with a tack that expresses your doubts that such miraculous feats would convince him to be part of that religion. Go on to expressing that he sounds scared about something and whatever he tells you that you won't judge him. Let him open up about what really scared him.



I will as soon as I see that he is receptive to a discussion about it. Right now he keeps us all at arms length.

Calling bullshit on the reason he gives is a lot more recievable than questioning his sexuality. (Especially if he was of a subsect that was fiercely anti-gay. If he is actually homosexual, he is a self-loathing one spurred on by the messages he has heard from his church and family over decades.)

Homosexuals have to come out of the closet on their own time. When they feel safe to do so.


Agreed, but it is hard to resist fucking with him.


Well, that's just what friends are for. Ya gotta fuck with him a little bit.

It's part of the guy code. If we ain't pickin on one another, we don't care.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  10:03:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock





Well sure they do! This is Wisconsin after all! Totally normal behavior here. If my body could still handle it I would be doing it on holiday weekends too.

But anyway....


Wisconsin, ain't that the same place where cheese is honored and revered? Look going out and pounding a few pops with the boys on a Friday night is one thing, but people who go on three day binders are just trying to mask some pain or grief. That is self-evident.

I agree with you analysis. He just went from one extreme to the other. We had been concerned about his drinking for a long time. it got to a point where the quality of people he was associating with went way downhill and he was being taken advantage of by some people.

That is the point, you were concerned about the dark place your friend had found himself in but could do nothing about it to help him. If maintaining your friendship is the goal here you better speak gently before criticizing that which could and did save him from his dark pit and has now given him over 9 months of sobriety.


The example of the Korn band members you mentioned has actually been a source of inspiration for him. We had high hopes after he started telling about these guys because it sounded like he was no longer considering leaving the band. But that changed again.

Well I don't know your friend but the list is endless of those who's priority's change greatly once they have a span of time to look at life through their Jesus supplied sober glasses. Things that used to drive and motivate them many times will now repulse them. For someone who has just come out of a dark bottomless pit that alcohol abuse and other choices put him in it should not be surprising that they might not want to do the same things they used to do. Maybe playing in a rock band reminds him to much of his drunken stupor days?

Agreed to a point. I am glad to support his quitting drinking but I cannot support the full blown religiousness he is exhibiting.

So one might say that you are intolerant of your friends new "lifestyle" which he has chosen for himself. This is not uncommon, most people consider themselves as tolerant until they are forced to deal with family or friends who choose a lifestyle that they despise. In other words they are tolerant of that with which they agree, but if is something to which they don't agree with....

He knows exactly how I feel about religion so there is a huge disconnect between us with regards to it. All I can do is be his friend when he needs me..thats about it.

I am sure he feels the exact same way as you just described. I speak as one who came to faith in Christ at the age of 21 who still maintains friendships over 20 years later with my unbelieving friends of the time because that is my story.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  10:18:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott

So one might say that you are intolerant of your friends new "lifestyle" which he has chosen for himself.
One would be very wrong to say that. The fact that Ebone is still friends with the guy is all the evidence one needs to determine that Ebone does, indeed, tolerate his friend's religious choice.

Just like we tolerate you and your religious nonsense, Bill.
This is not uncommon, most people consider themselves as tolerant until they are forced to deal with family or friends who choose a lifestyle that they despise. In other words they are tolerant of that with which they agree, but if is something to which they don't agree with....
Well, once you feel free to redefine a word, you can make it mean anything you like.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  11:04:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.




One would be very wrong to say that. The fact that Ebone is still friends with the guy is all the evidence one needs to determine that Ebone does, indeed, tolerate his friend's religious choice.

Well when the dude says
I am glad to support his quitting drinking but I cannot support the full blown religiousness he is exhibiting.

you can Interpetate that anyway you want. My interpretation was "support" could be replaced by "tolerate" and the intent would be the same.
Just like we tolerate you and your religious nonsense, Bill.

As me with you.
Well, once you feel free to redefine a word, you can make it mean anything you like.

And so if a monkey, using a specially designed tool, wrote me a message redefining the word tolerant and had it sent over to me for delevery, while I was digging out my artifical pond, and I happened to disagree with his redefinition would this be a natural or unnatural action in those context? And since I already know that you will ask this all takes place in Macedonia (circa 200 A.D) and the pond is for cropy fishing which I will be using a modern day Shimano Chronarch rod with a fresh water graphite reel that was transpoted to me via a time machine, which was also created by the monkey and his specially designed tool. So this should be an easy one for you, natural or unnatural?


Edited to add:

I don't know, maybe I did misinterpret, Ebone. As a Christian I do tolerate homosexuals without supporting them.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 09/09/2011 11:39:33
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  11:50:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott

you can Interpetate that anyway you want. My interpretation was "support" could be replaced by "tolerate" and the intent would be the same.
"Cannot support" and "does not tolerate" are not synonymous. In fact, the very definition of the word "tolerate" says that one would generally only use the word for things that one would not support. One tolerates things that one finds distasteful or wrong, but which one will not prevent. As in, "I cannot support your religious views, Bill, but I will tolerate their airing here on SFN."
And so if a monkey, using a specially designed tool, wrote me a message redefining the word tolerant and had it sent over to me for delevery, while I was digging out my artifical pond, and I happened to disagree with his redefinition would this be a natural or unnatural action in those context? And since I already know that you will ask this all takes place in Macedonia (circa 200 A.D) and the pond is for cropy fishing which I will be using a modern day Shimano Chronarch rod with a fresh water graphite reel that was transpoted to me via a time machine, which was also created by the monkey and his specially designed tool. So this should be an easy one for you, natural or unnatural?
Mu.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  11:52:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott

Edited to add:

I don't know, maybe I did misinterpret, Ebone.
I'm sure you did.
As a Christian I do tolerate homosexuals without supporting them.
That depends: have you stopped beating them?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  11:56:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Bill scott

Edited to add:

I don't know, maybe I did misinterpret, Ebone.
I'm sure you did.
As a Christian I do tolerate homosexuals without supporting them.
That depends: have you stopped beating them?


Well I DO support homosexuals. I just paid for a whole night out for one a couple of weeks ago! She sure can eat and drink a lot!

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  11:56:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ebone wrote:


He deserves all the fucking with that he gets. You outta hear some of the homophobic shit that comes out of his mouth. What makes it even more funny is the fact that if anyone is in the closet it is him!


I tend to think there is no hope for closeted gay guys of that mentality (assuming your friend really is gay.) My housmate has been dating his boyfriend for almost 2 years, and his boyfriend is STILL not out to his parents. My housmate is so frustrated about it because he's been to their house a bunch of times and even buys them presents for Christmas, but he can't just act like their son's boyfriend because officially they don't know the truth. And his boyfriend's parents are liberals! I've known so many gay people now over the years who had trouble coming out to their totally accepting families, that I can't imagine how hard it must be for someone to come out if a huge part of their family and/or community is anti-gay. For those people, coming out literally means flipping your whole life upsidedown, getting new friends, and possibly becoming estranged from your family. It helps me understand how so many gay people end up closeted their whole lives, many even marrying someone of the opposite sex and living a life that is a total lie. So fucking sad and messed up. I'm glad the culture in developed nations is changing so rapidly. It is a joy to live in a time where I can witnesses the changes in attitudes happening and all the benefits those changes have for people who were previously so horribly persecuted. But, y'know, they're still rounding them up and imprisoning/killing them in some parts of the world. Insanity.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  12:06:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bill wrote:
As a Christian I do tolerate homosexuals without supporting them.
Ah, so you support laws that would protect gays from discrimination in the workplace, discrimination in adopting and fostering children, and which would give them the rights of legal marriage, yes? Because while I'm very critical of most religious doctrines and I certainly don't like when someone I care about converts to a religious I find distasteful, I still want them to be legally protected from religious discrimination, and I think they should be allowed to get married and adopt kids and raise them with that religion if they so choose.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  13:05:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.



"Cannot support" and "does not tolerate" are not synonymous. In fact, the very definition of the word "tolerate" says that one would generally only use the word for things that one would not support. One tolerates things that one finds distasteful or wrong, but which one will not prevent. As in, "I cannot support your religious views, Bill, but I will tolerate their airing here on SFN."

I know, that is why I said that I tolerate homosexuals without supporting them.


And so if a monkey, using a specially designed tool, wrote me a message redefining the word tolerant and had it sent over to me for delevery, while I was digging out my artifical pond, and I happened to disagree with his redefinition would this be a natural or unnatural action in those context? And since I already know that you will ask this all takes place in Macedonia (circa 200 A.D) and the pond is for cropy fishing which I will be using a modern day Shimano Chronarch rod with a fresh water graphite reel that was transpoted to me via a time machine, which was also created by the monkey and his specially designed tool. So this should be an easy one for you, natural or unnatural?

Mu

I figured this would be your response.


As a Christian I do tolerate homosexuals without supporting them.

That depends: have you stopped beating them?

Have you?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2011 :  13:16:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott

I know, that is why I said that I tolerate homosexuals without supporting them.
Yeah, you were busy editing your comment while I was replying to it.
I figured this would be your response.
Then why did you ask?
As a Christian I do tolerate homosexuals without supporting them.
That depends: have you stopped beating them?
Have you?
I never started.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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