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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
 Posted - 10/12/2011 : 07:30:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by justintime
To say there is no diversity between the races... |
I never said that. Did anyone else say that? |
It has been pointed out, over and over again, that there is only one human species, and that this fact renders moot any speculation that different human races may have evolved from different primate ancestors. justintime seems determined to overlook this fact, or at least wave it off as somehow irrelevant. |
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 07:38:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hal
It has been pointed out, over and over again, that there is only one human species, and that this fact renders moot any speculation that different human races may have evolved from different primate ancestors. justintime seems determined to overlook this fact, or at least wave it off as somehow irrelevant. |
Oh, that. Yes, the idea that all of us being one species means that there is no diversity among us is stunningly stupid. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 09:36:53 [Permalink]
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justintime wrote: Studies have been done on races and their predisposition to certain physical, mental, genetic health conditions.
To say there is no diversity between the races is to ignore much of scientific data. |
Nobody said that.
You claimed that the diversity was great enough to warrant speculation that the different human races evolved separately from completely different species of apes. A claim that we have good evidence and reasoning to believe is biologically impossible and has never happened with ANY species on the earth.
| I don't see how a person who claims to be a skeptic can also believe his position is defensible. When a skeptic does not know the material under consideration. It is ignorance that he is defending. |
Yup. Pretty accurate description of yourself in this discussion.
| To refuse to look beyond the obvious and challenge each sentence with a simplistic response is to view every piece of information in isolation. |
That is a mischaracterization of what has happened. You can only put together the big picture if the facts you start with are true. You have brought forth many false facts, and we have corrected you.
| There are many disciplines. Some parallel, some dependent, some interconnected that shape our understanding of the world. |
Irrelevant. If facts are false, you can't make any valid conclusions based on them.
| The skeptics are possibly operation in a single dimension. They eiother don't know, they cannot verify it, what limited knowledge they do have does not arrive at the same conclusion. |
Everyone here has arrived at the same conclusion except you.
| In short it is not the facts but the skeptics own ability to process it that is being debated. |
Not really. You made a bunch of claims that were false. We corrected you. You made the same false claims again. We corrected you again. You made the same false claims again. And now everyone is getting frustrated. My best conclusion is that you are too stupid or in love with your own arguments or too proud to understand/acknowledge our corrections.
| Have the skeptics contributed in any way to issues like Global Warming, MMR vaccine and links to autism. The birther movement. The moon landing. Roswell. the missing link etc. etc. |
Yes. Tons.
| Skeptics are just armchair critics a little less committed than conspiracy theorist who actually offer an alternate explanation and can be challenged on their own position. |
"armchair" criticism refers to criticism that is based not on research and objective facts, but pure speculation. That is a more accurate description of what you are doing, seeing as you yourself have admitted that there is no science yet to support the absurd ideas you are expressing. Skeptics support the arguments that have the best evidence behind them. Some of those arguments are mainstream and popular. Some of those arguments are not. But skepticism goes where the best evidence leads. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 10/12/2011 09:38:23 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 09:58:45 [Permalink]
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justintime:
Studies have been done on races and their predisposition to certain physical, mental, genetic health conditions. |
Technically, there are no "races" but there are ethnicities that have some heritable traits. I posted this earlier to clear up your confusion on this point. I'm sure you didn't take the time to watch them. So I'll do you a favore and post the links again:
Do Human Races Exist?
Genetic Bucket Chain, Part 1
Genetic Bucket Chain, Part 2
All the rest of your last post is crap. Not worth responding to. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 12:19:17 [Permalink]
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There is consistency in my modern theory. I am rather happy you guys are showing such resistance because I am only now discovering there are so many links to support my application of critical thinking on the subject of diversity, race, different ancestors, parallel evolution. Was that putting the cart before the horse as Kil put it? But that is how scientific methodology works. Hypotheses, theory, then verification. Or as Steve Jobs said you connect the dots looking back.....
I am not sure what you mean by in qoutes; But I am sure it will be incorporated into my modern theory if there is a fit.
DaveW wrote
Still no evidence that diversification would have been too fast if it had been Darwinian. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 12:23:01 [Permalink]
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The article first presents a straw man argument: that "some of the world’s leading scientists and scientific institutions" claim that race is "merely a 'social construct,' or a creation of society’s collective imagination." What are these leading scientific institutions? Who are these scientists? What do they mean by these claims? How are they defining "race"? The author of the article never says.
From the article: | Although it was reported as the largest study to find genetic differences between races, Risch’s study is not the first. Previous studies have found that Ashkenazi Jews are genetically more susceptible than average for Tay-Sachs disease, a fatal nervous system disorder, for instance. Black populations have been found to carry higher levels of a mutation that leads to sickle-cell anemia. The education gap is another reality that shows up repeatedly regardless of socioeconomic conditions. |
Risch's study did not find genetic differences between races. It found that the race people tend to identify with almost always correlates accurately with a genetic background associated with that race. Wow. Isn't that an amazing find. Really. I'm shocked. Who would have thought that people descended from a particular ethnic group with unique genetically heritable traits would identify as being a member of that group.
The genes that cause Tay Sachs and Sickle Cell Anemia are part of said genetic background which was already established. Tay Sachs resulted from a genetic bottleneck. The gene that causes Sickle Cell Anemia is common among people of African origin because the same gene also can provide increased protection from malaria. Populations that live a long time around the equator tend to develop darker skin and longer limbs to protect against overheating, while people in colder areas tend to be more fair skinned with stockier limbs. This is all stuff any undergraduate majoring in Anthropology learns their first year. Does any of this support the idea that the "races" as we commonly identify them have profound genetic differences and/or have origins that go back further than 200,000 years? Nope. Many dog breeds are genetically prone to various illnesses, allergies, temperaments, etc. Knowing these tendencies often helps veterinarians diagnose problems. Doesn't change the fact that there is relatively not very much genetic diversity among all the dog breeds in the world and that they all have a common ancestor in wolves that only goes back 15,000 years.
Nobody in the scientific community makes claims that there are no genetic differences between populations that have lived in isolation from others for extended periods of time.
More importantly, none of this supports any of your arguments in this thread, justintime Does the study mentioned in this article argue that there is enough genetic diversity between human races to support speculation that the races evolved separately from each other from different discreet species of ape? No. All this article really does is get into what is basically a semantic argument over the term "race" and its usefulness.
Stop making an ass out of yourself and admit that the idea that different racial groups of humans evolved from different species of ape millions of years ago is stupid. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 10/12/2011 12:25:52 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 12:33:09 [Permalink]
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| Neat videos, Kil. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
 Posted - 10/12/2011 : 12:44:03 [Permalink]
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Here's the about the author page. This seems to be her blog:
Jenny Kolber
Unfortunately, a google search didn't turn up more about her.
Great source, justintime.
[Edited to disable link to virus-filled page - Dave W.] |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 12:46:27 [Permalink]
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I missed responding to this from justintime: | The education gap is another reality that shows up repeatedly regardless of socioeconomic conditions. |
Socioeconomic status is hardly the only factor that can influence academic performance. Asians tend to do better in math, but there is plenty of evidence to show that a huge part of the explanation of that is cultural. Racial minorities in every society tend to do worse academically, despite socioeconomic status, pointing to discrimination, which impacts how individuals are treated and how individuals might see themselves. For instance, African Americans have been found in studies to do worse on a test if they are told in advance that it measures intelligence. The implication is that the stereotype of black intellectual inferiority creates a test-taking anxiety that lowers their score. I brought up a similar study in the thread about the impact of female teachers with increased math anxiety on the math scores of girl students. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 10/12/2011 12:48:27 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 12:50:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
There is consistency in my modern theory. I am rather happy you guys are showing such resistance because I am only now discovering there are so many links to support my application of critical thinking on the subject of diversity, race, different ancestors, parallel evolution. Was that putting the cart before the horse as Kil put it? But that is how scientific methodology works. Hypotheses, theory, then verification. Or as Steve Jobs said you connect the dots looking back..... |
Scientific theories address apt criticisms and either get retracted or modified as a result. You have yet to address the chromosomal fusion evidence. Do you think ignoring it will make it go away? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 13:12:57 [Permalink]
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Why do we keep responding to justintime? He knows we will. We are such suckers for trolls... I know that I'm guilty of that too. But really. Does anyone have any real doubt about what he's doing?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 15:24:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Why do we keep responding to justintime? He knows we will. We are such suckers for trolls... I know that I'm guilty of that too. But really. Does anyone have any real doubt about what he's doing?
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That is so unfair. A troll by definition is a disruptive blogger. I have maintained contunity. I am a contributor and advancer of every topic I engage in. The guilt lies in the inability of the master baiters to control their excitement every time I shed a few words of wisdom.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 16:32:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
Originally posted by Kil
Why do we keep responding to justintime? He knows we will. We are such suckers for trolls... I know that I'm guilty of that too. But really. Does anyone have any real doubt about what he's doing?
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That is so unfair. A troll by definition is a disruptive blogger. I have maintained contunity. I am a contributor and advancer of every topic I engage in. The guilt lies in the inability of the master baiters to control their excitement every time I shed a few words of wisdom.
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I'm actually giving you the benefit of the doubt. You know that going back to that stupid racist site is not going to further your case. It doesn't advance an argument to go around in circles. But you know that it will get an argument, or at the very least, get me to point out how ridiculous your source is. I have to think you know that because the alternative is that you're an idiot.
You have, in every thread you have engaged, taken a position that you know will get most skeptics going. And your links tell me that you are sitting there laughing. If you want to fuck with us, go ahead I guess. And yeah. Part of the blame does lie with those of us who are willing to engage... On that I agree. I guess it's just a stupid game. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Evolution Questions
