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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
 Posted - 03/31/2012 : 23:21:29
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I was watching a documentary about the Jesuits on Netflix (http://www.amazon.com/The-Company-Inigo-His-Jesuits/dp/B0002B55K2), and it said Jesuits were the "first to realize the Earth circles the sun." How did they possibly come to this conclusion? Is there any reason to think this is true? Even if we ignore pre-Christian and non-European ideas, doesn't Copernicus still come first?
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"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2012 : 00:09:34 [Permalink]
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Well, the Pope's Army was and still probably is the best educated order of the Catholic Church.
It's likely that they were the first in the Church to realize heliocentricity was reality. But I doubt they beat Copernicus to the idea. The Jesuits almost certainly would never have made a public statement contradicting Vatican dogma without first clearing it with the Pope. I'd like to know upon what the documentary bases its claim. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 05:28:57 [Permalink]
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Aristarchus shafted again...
My guess is that the Jesuits were in charge of vetting these ideas for the church, of course they would not verify it without permission. Too busy keeping Copernicus in his place. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 05:59:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Aristarchus shafted again...
My guess is that the Jesuits were in charge of vetting these ideas for the church, of course they would not verify it without permission. Too busy keeping Copernicus in his place. |
I hadn't known about Aristarchus, so looked I him up. No need for telescopes to discover heliocentrism, so it makes sense that the ancients figured it out 1800 years before Copernicus. Thanks for mentioning Aristarchus, BPS! |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 06:39:24 [Permalink]
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| No prob Mooner, they were also aware of the spherical nature of the earth back then, thanks to Heron the Great's geodesic brilliance. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 06:48:19 [Permalink]
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The Greeks, around the time of Aristarchus (if I'm not mistaken), had figured out the relative distances between Earth, Moon, and the Sun. Roughly estimated of course by our standards, but surprisingly accurate give the technology at the time.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 07:04:50 [Permalink]
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| Actually Doc it was in fact Aristarcus who was the pioneer in judging those distances, his only surviving work is on the subject... of course it's a lot easier to do if you dont believe the earth is the center of the universe or that the sun and moon are the same size. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 22:03:03 [Permalink]
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If we're to believe Wikipedia, Copernicus was circulating a manuscript with his theories in 1533 if not earlier -- the Jesuits were formed in 1534, so it's not even true they were first in the modern age.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism#Circulation_of_Commentariolus_.28before_1533.29 |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2012 : 23:32:40 [Permalink]
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I believe Wikipedia cautiously and conditionally, unless I find an entry that's obviously created to promote some idea. These are mostly obscure entries that don't attract attention or criticism.
Looks like at most, all the Jesuits may have done was to confirm Copernican theory, if that. Obviously, they, as Jesuits, could have done nothing one way or the other before their order existed. But the Jesuits are great promoters of the order, and are infamous for their twisting of the truth. From Wiki:| Jesuits have also been accused of using casuistry to obtain justifications for the unjustifiable (See: formulary controversy; Blaise Pascals' Lettres Provinciales).[48] In English, according to the Concise Oxford Dictionary, "Jesuitical" has acquired a secondary meaning of "equivocating". |
I love the 1539 Martin Luther quote there in Wiki. He's definitely trying to get Protestantism's leg up in the Bible-as-a-science-text race: | There is talk of a new astrologer who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody were moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must . . . invent something special, and the way he does it must needs be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth |
Not that the Jesuits were apparently slow to get of the same block that Luther was using. Your linked article also says: | The Jesuit astronomers in Rome were at first unreceptive to Tycho's system; the most prominent, Clavius, commented that Tycho was "confusing all of astronomy, because he wants to have Mars lower than the Sun." [64] However, after the advent of the telescope showed problems with some geocentric models (by demonstrating that Venus circles the sun, for example), the Tychonic system and variations on that system became very popular among geocentrists, and the Jesuit astronomer Giovanni Battista Riccioli would continue Tycho's use of physics, stellar astronomy (now with a telescope), and religion to argue against heliocentrism and for Tycho's system well into the seventeenth century (see Riccioli). |
That would mean that after 1587, when Tycho wrote up his own take, known as the "geo-heliocentric" theory, Jesuits were still fighting tooth-and-nail against a sun-centered solar system!
I'd provisionally call the claim that the Jesuits discovered heliocentrism just another "Jesuitical" lie.
But yeah, the Jesuits probably confirmed Copernicus, and reported their findings to the Pope. Then they continued to abuse heliocentrism, anyway. Defend orthodox dogma. That's their thang. Truth is and was the last of their concerns. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/02/2012 23:42:55 |
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Jesuits and Heliocentrism
