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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2012 :  01:19:48  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm interested to know what the official stances of atheist organisations are on this subject and their "reasoning" behind forming these moral positions.

Individual opinions (with justification) also welcome.

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2012 :  01:53:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let me just get out my official atheist handbook here and, hmmmm... Ah oh. There isn't one!

Personally speaking, I think it should be legal. Take it out of the hands of pimps, lowlifes and assorted criminal types and have some health rules and other regulations, like they have in Nevada. It's going to happen anyway. So why leave it in the control of criminals?

Having said that, I abhor the objectification of woman. And certainly purchasing one is objectifying. So to my way of thinking, it's a practical matter and not something I generally aprove of. In the realm of politics, it's been more or less legal from the git-go, since whatever the currency was at the time was paid for favorable outcome for the payee. Sure there are laws. But political contributions, even if they are supposed to be reported, still influence decisions. So just to be clear, what kind of prostitution are we talking about here?

Come to think of it, it's all politics, social constructs (which may have some religious component), health issues and stuff like that.


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Why not question something for a change?

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Machi4velli
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USA
854 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2012 :  01:54:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

I'm interested to know what the official stances of atheist organisations are on this subject and their "reasoning" behind forming these moral positions.

Individual opinions (with justification) also welcome.


I'm not sure of any atheists being particularly moved by what atheist organizations' stances are -- I have no idea what they think, but I have personal thoughts.

If each person involved is a willing participant, I have no problem with prostitution. As it occurs typically in the US, this isn't the case, as pimps tend to be criminals (sure, they're criminals by virtue of their involvement prostitution, but I mean to say they are often criminals in other ways as well).

I believe it's possible to have prostitution safely, and as far as I know, some of the places in Vegas and certain European countries are examples of this. With safety and consent from everyone involved, which I do think is possible, I support legality.

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On fire for Christ
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Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2012 :  01:59:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Let me just get out my official atheist handbook here and, hmmmm... Ah oh. There isn't one!



I am aware there is no handbook. I thought I was pretty clear that I was asking for the stances of official non-religious organisations and/or personal opinions, I don't see any need to be facetious.

Having said that, I abhor the objectification of woman. And certainly purchasing one is objectifying. So to my way of thinking, it's a practical matter and not something I generally aprove of.


I'm sure you don't mean to be so sexist but not all prostitutes are women. And if I may play devil's advocate, how does purchasing a sexual service differ from purchasing any other kind of service? Are you putting sex on some kind of spiritual pedestal?

Edited by - On fire for Christ on 04/06/2012 02:02:56
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HalfMooner
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Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2012 :  02:02:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are we talking in terms of legality or morality? Either way, I'd say it varies widely. Having a position on prostitution isn't a requirement of being an atheist, any more than is having a position on proper atheist footwear. So atheists and atheist groups are perfectly free to think and say what they want on the subject. There is a strong libertarian faction among atheists. I suppose they feel prostitution should be legal. They can defend their own position.

Myself, I think that since there is probably always going to be prostitution, society should try to insure that it is safe and fully consensual.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
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On fire for Christ
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Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2012 :  02:04:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Are we talking in terms of legality or morality? Either way, I'd say it varies widely. Having a position on prostitution isn't a requirement of being an atheist, any more than is having a position on proper atheist footwear. So atheists and atheist groups are perfectly free to think and say what they want on the subject. There is a strong libertarian faction among atheists. I suppose they feel prostitution should be legal. They can defend their own position.

Myself, I think that since there is probably always going to be prostitution, society should try to insure that it is safe and fully consensual.


I realise it's not an atheist requirement, I just want to know your stance and the moral reasoning behind it.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2012 :  02:08:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Originally posted by Kil

Let me just get out my official atheist handbook here and, hmmmm... Ah oh. There isn't one!



I am aware there is no handbook. I thought I was pretty clear that I was asking for the stances of official non-religious organisations and/or personal opinions, I don't see any need to be facetious.

Having said that, I abhor the objectification of woman. And certainly purchasing one is objectifying. So to my way of thinking, it's a practical matter and not something I generally aprove of.


I'm sure you don't mean to be so sexist but not all prostitutes are women. And if I may play devil's advocate, how does purchasing a sexual service differ from purchasing any other kind of service? Are you putting sex on some kind of spiritual pedestal?

Sorry. But the use of the word "official" pretty much means you think there is an approved stance on the issue. Just so you know, some atheists are conservatives and some are liberals and some are libertarians. Hell! There was a battle among atheists over the appropriateness of a woman being hit on in an elevator after she talked about how she doesn't want to be hit on.

And yeah. Men get objectified too. As for buying a service, as I said, I don't personally aprove, but it's going to happen, so my position is to make it safe. Nothing to do with spirituality and everything to do with turning people into objects. But again, the most important thing is to make it safe. And that means legalizing it.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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On fire for Christ
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Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2012 :  02:13:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Which is why I referred to "non-religious/atheist organisations". Not just "all atheists in general".
Organisations may or may not have an official position on the issue. There are many non-religious institutions, are you saying none of them have any kind of approved stance? I thought the whole idea of founding something like a humanist society was to bring a group with a common ideology under one umbrella.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2012 :  02:27:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From Humanist Manifesto II:

SIXTH: In the area of sexuality, we believe that intolerant attitudes, often cultivated by orthodox religions and puritanical cultures, unduly repress sexual conduct. The right to birth control, abortion, and divorce should be recognized. While we do not approve of exploitive, denigrating forms of sexual expression, neither do we wish to prohibit, by law or social sanction, sexual behavior between consenting adults. The many varieties of sexual exploration should not in themselves be considered "evil." Without countenancing mindless permissiveness or unbridled promiscuity, a civilized society should be a tolerant one. Short of harming others or compelling them to do likewise, individuals should be permitted to express their sexual proclivities and pursue their lifestyles as they desire. We wish to cultivate the development of a responsible attitude toward sexuality, in which humans are not exploited as sexual objects, and in which intimacy, sensitivity, respect, and honesty in interpersonal relations are encouraged. Moral education for children and adults is an important way of developing awareness and sexual maturity.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2012 :  02:37:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

From Humanist Manifesto II:

We wish to cultivate the development of a responsible attitude toward sexuality, in which humans are not exploited as sexual objects, and in which intimacy, sensitivity, respect, and honesty in interpersonal relations are encouraged.



I wonder if they are being deliberately vague... what is the threshold for "exploitation"? Some might view all prostitution as a form of exploitation. While others might see it as a service and a business transaction, and the call for "intimacy" towards sex can be viewed as a religious hang-up towards what is essentially a biological imperative.

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2012 :  06:02:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I second Kil's comments.

OFFC, you'll have to excuse our sensitivity to the idea that we are some sort of organization, you see we've been dealing with the nonsenseical notion that we are slaves to Dawkins/Darwins/Soviets etc. opinions for our entire non-theist lives. No doubt a notion you've dealt with being lumped together with every detestable "Christian" in history, by folks like us.

This is why I no longer identify as atheist, it's too broad. I find being lumped into the same catagory as Buddists and sun worshippers to be as offensive as a Southern baptist might feel about being included with Mormons.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2012 :  08:22:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it should be legalized but regulated to ensure that the people in the business want to be there and are not being coerced.

W-2s filed, health care provided, PPE provided by the employer (required under OSHA), etc.

Remove the illegality, and you can tax it. Helps pay for stuff.

But I am not non-religious/atheist either.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 04/06/2012 08:24:03
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2012 :  09:00:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

I wonder if they are being deliberately vague...
Few things in the realm of human interactions are black-and-white.
...what is the threshold for "exploitation"?
Does there need to be just one?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2012 :  12:36:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

And if I may play devil's advocate, how does purchasing a sexual service differ from purchasing any other kind of service?
Indeed.
Especially when there are legitimate services which are also quite intimate - like full-body massage which covers most parts (though not all) of the body, for the pleasure of the recipient.
That is my personal take on it. I don't know if any atheist organization have any opinion on the subject. It should be legalised and regulated to ensure that any engagements are made fully informed and with consent.

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2012 :  12:43:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by On fire for Christ

I wonder if they are being deliberately vague...
Few things in the realm of human interactions are black-and-white.
Except though the eyes of a religious fanatic.

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On fire for Christ
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Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2012 :  00:40:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by On fire for Christ

I wonder if they are being deliberately vague...
Few things in the realm of human interactions are black-and-white.
...what is the threshold for "exploitation"?
Does there need to be just one?


Can be as many as you want as long as it clarifies their stance rather than dancing around it. The statement from the Humanist manifesto reads like vapid sentimentality (Probably written by a woman). If they are declaring themselves as being against sexual exploitation, then they need to define it to some degree. If they aren't, then don't bring it up at all.

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