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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
 Posted - 05/30/2012 : 04:38:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Possibly this is all some how related to one's possible fear of death. To believe that when you die you simply no longer exist, as was the case before you were born, is just to scary for some and by believing in an after life it removes that reality and with it the fear.
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I agree. That is quite a step to take. Realizing at some point in time that you will feel nothing, know nothing, be nothing, except those physical parts that gets recycled here on earth. My initial thought is that I will miss being alive with the very next being, "No I won't". |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 08:27:14 [Permalink]
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| With all that we don't know, it wouldn't surprise me if there is some form of continued existence. My gut tells me that the truth will be stranger than fiction. It's possible that we could make a discovery that would open a door to understanding these things. But I think it's also probable that it's so far beyond our reach that we're like ants trying to understand physics. |
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." ~from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey
"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." ~Robert G. Ingersoll
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 09:28:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baxter
With all that we don't know, it wouldn't surprise me if there is some form of continued existence. My gut tells me that the truth will be stranger than fiction. It's possible that we could make a discovery that would open a door to understanding these things. But I think it's also probable that it's so far beyond our reach that we're like ants trying to understand physics.
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A thought process encouraged by Hebrews 11:1. Leaving behind such a thought process is actually quite liberating. Difficult but liberating.
edited to add:
Why liberating? No fear of eternal tourture. No fear of eternal tedium. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 05/30/2012 09:54:38 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 09:49:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baxter
With all that we don't know, it wouldn't surprise me if there is some form of continued existence. My gut tells me that the truth will be stranger than fiction. It's possible that we could make a discovery that would open a door to understanding these things. But I think it's also probable that it's so far beyond our reach that we're like ants trying to understand physics.
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You must not know very much about ants, the minute we fail to resist them they are going to conquer us. I for one welcome our new insect Overlords.
Seriously though ever seen one of them giant ant bridges?
Edit: Also there are ants which breed other insects, I'm not sure but they may be selectivly breeding them. If ants ever understand evolution we are soo screwed
/hijack |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 05/30/2012 09:53:27 |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1486 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 13:09:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baxter
With all that we don't know, it wouldn't surprise me if there is some form of continued existence. My gut tells me that the truth will be stranger than fiction. It's possible that we could make a discovery that would open a door to understanding these things. But I think it's also probable that it's so far beyond our reach that we're like ants trying to understand physics.
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Science has revealed that what makes us us are the electro-chemical patterns in our brains, coded and forged over successive generations of our ancestors. When you die, the patterns collapse. You will no longer be you. You came from nothing and you'll go back to nothing. |
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 13:24:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by ThorGoLucky
Science has revealed that what makes us us are the electro-chemical patterns in our brains, coded and forged over successive generations of our ancestors. When you die, the patterns collapse. You will no longer be you. You came from nothing and you'll go back to nothing.
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So you claim. 
Who's to say what's beyond the horizon? |
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." ~from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey
"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." ~Robert G. Ingersoll
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1486 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 13:49:11 [Permalink]
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To answer you question, the Muslims. According to Islam, there is an afterlife where you will be tortured forever. Have a nice day.
I go wherever the evidence takes me. If you have a better explanation that's supported by credible evidence, I'll change my mind.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 17:28:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baxter
Who's to say what's beyond the horizon? |
The bare sentiment there is not only a celebration of ignorance, but a sad justification for jettisoning one's aspirations.
Why should I go to work? I might be given a million-dollar inheritance tomorrow. Who's to say what's beyond the horizon?
Why should I start a family? Maybe cloning and brain transfers will keep me alive forever. Who's to say what's beyond the horizon?
Why should I get out of bed? An asteroid might crash into my living room. Who's to say what's beyond the horizon?
Yes, as Ingersoll notes, we need to admit to the limits of our knowledge, and some of the things we think we know will turn out to be wrong, but that doesn't mean that any particular thing we think we know is wrong.
The Sun will not turn out to be a ball of iron powered by electricity. We won't ever suddenly realize that the Earth is shaped like a coin. We have no compelling reasons to think that these things will ever be found to be true, just like we have no compelling reasons to think that consciousness survives death, and all sorts of compelling reasons to think that it does not. Believing that someday we might learn differently is just a sort of denialist wishful thinking which can kill dreams. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 19:14:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
Originally posted by Baxter
I think the real question here is whether we see teleology in nature. When I consider individual processes, I may not see teleology. But when I look at the broader narrative, it's hard for me to not see it.
Does your skepticism allow for any teleology?
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Sure, it allows for it. But Douglas Adams wrote something that should caution one from drawing such a conclusion just because it LOOKS like there is teleology:
| ...imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact, it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' |
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Love this quote! It's an idea I've not seen articulated well. It can be seen as circular, saying that some order exists in the universe because it has allowed me to exist, and therefore there must be a reason for it.
It seems little more than acknowledging the fact that you exist in a universe where it's possible for you exist. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 21:09:17 [Permalink]
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Wikiquote has a fuller version of the Douglas Adams quote and links to the whole speech:Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, "This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!" This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for. We all know that at some point in the future the Universe will come to an end and at some other point, considerably in advance from that but still not immediately pressing, the sun will explode. We feel there's plenty of time to worry about that, but on the other hand that's a very dangerous thing to say. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 22:01:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by sailingsoul
Possibly this is all some how related to one's possible fear of death. To believe that when you die you simply no longer exist, as was the case before you were born, is just to scary for some and by believing in an after life it removes that reality and with it the fear.
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I agree. That is quite a step to take. Realizing at some point in time that you will feel nothing, know nothing, be nothing, except those physical parts that gets recycled here on earth. My initial thought is that I will miss being alive with the very next being, "No I won't".
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Yes moakley, it is quite a step to take as you put it. Accepting only the reality we have evidence for and giving up other beliefs that we have no evidence for, like God or an afterlife. A belief in God or an afterlife provides protection from fear, fear of death and fear of the unknown. Giving up that protection is like ripping off a band-aid. Once it's over you can get on with the rest of your life without the imaginary protection believing Thor, Zeus or any other God might provide. I have asked theists who say they don't believe that Thor or Zeus were ever real God's " So what specifically assures you that your God is true when you know the others were made up"? I'm still seeking for any theist to give an answer, that doesn't use the bible. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 22:19:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baxter
With all that we don't know, it wouldn't surprise me if there is some form of continued existence. My gut tells me that the truth will be stranger than fiction. It's possible that we could make a discovery that would open a door to understanding these things. But I think it's also probable that it's so far beyond our reach that we're like ants trying to understand physics.
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To somehow try to upgrade a hopeful, imaginable but totally unevidenced notion to something that should be taken seriously is a profound abrogation of reason. It's true, I think, that people "naturally" find it difficult to think of a universe in which they do not somehow survive. But that's no evidence that they do survive.
There are potentially an infinity of notions that nobody can disprove. But like Russell's Teapot, it's not on the heads doubters to disprove each of them, but upon the believer (or, perhaps in this case the "hoper" or the "wisher") to prove just one of them. I can see no reason, aside from the practice of logic in debunking such notions, to waste part of one's limited existence with such nonsense. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/30/2012 22:20:41 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2012 : 06:03:48 [Permalink]
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In an infinite universe, we all get 72* virgins! Go Science!**
*Well technically an infinite number of virgins.
**In an infinite universe, the infinte universe concept is considered sound science, somewhere. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2012 : 06:18:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
In an infinite universe, we all get 72* virgins! Go Science!**
*Well technically an infinite number of virgins. ++
**In an infinite universe, the infinte universe concept is considered sound science, somewhere. +++
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++ Including none.
+++ And somewhere else, it's been proven impossible. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/31/2012 06:24:50 |
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2012 : 07:42:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
It's true, I think, that people "naturally" find it difficult to think of a universe in which they do not somehow survive. |
Yeah, that's just it. It makes no sense to me for us to just die and that's it. Game over. Thanks for playing!
And if I can't make sense of it, then I'm compelled to expect something that does make sense of it. |
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." ~from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey
"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." ~Robert G. Ingersoll
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Purpose in Nature
