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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2012 :  14:17:06  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The SFN tends to be left-leaning, and we've had plenty of threads calling out conservatives for doing and/or saying dumb things, but it's time for some equality in criticism.

So, to all the liberals sending death threats to Brad Pitt's mother in response to her dumb anti-Obama letter: cut it the fuck out. That sort of censorious bullying is completely uncalled-for in an allegedly civilized nation. Disagreement (even strongly worded and possibly insulting) is approved of, harassment is not. It not only steps over legal boundaries, but you asswipes are conceding the moral high-ground, too.

And so long as guilt-by-association still exists, your douchebaggery is making me and other progressives look bad. So quit it.

That goes for other alleged liberals like Charles Carreon and Brett Kimberlin, too. Using legal machinations to silence critics does not serve liberalism well, and I'm ashamed to be on the same end of the political spectrum with these jerks.

Any other liberals here want to call out any other idiots on our own side? Feel free. Just please avoid the "conservatives are worse" line of argument, here. If you must go there, start a new thread for it.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.

On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2012 :  18:27:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If it makes you feel better, she probably got a lot of congratulatory letters for her anti-Barrack-Hussain-Obama letter too.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2012 :  22:17:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

If it makes you feel better, she probably got a lot of congratulatory letters for her anti-Barrack-Hussain-Obama letter too.
No, it doesn't make me feel any better that "the other side" also has bugnuts insane people in it. For one thing, I knew that already. For another, that's why I said that people should avoid "conservatives are worse." It's a tu quoque argument at best, and a childish "he hit me first" whine at worst.

My brand of liberalism involves the thoughtful use of government resources to help relieve social injustice, and so anyone who advocates for irrationality in any way is anathema. Praising the letter is just as dangerous to an enlightened society as sending death threats about the letter, it's just that the harm of the former is arguably more insidious because it's more effectively disguised.

So no, it doesn't make me feel better. It instead prompts concern in me that certain grave sites will burst into flame given how quickly our Founding Fathers must be rolling over. It is not a foundational American value (for example) for those sympathetic for the oppressed to instantaneously become wanna-be oppressors.

(Another example to go with the OP: this shit needs to stop, too.)

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2012 :  22:32:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's no way you can stop irrational people from saying irrational things until you take away their rights to free speech.

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2012 :  00:43:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

The SFN tends to be left-leaning, and we've had plenty of threads calling out conservatives for doing and/or saying dumb things, but it's time for some equality in criticism.

So, to all the liberals sending death threats to Brad Pitt's mother in response to her dumb anti-Obama letter: cut it the fuck out. That sort of censorious bullying is completely uncalled-for in an allegedly civilized nation. Disagreement (even strongly worded and possibly insulting) is approved of, harassment is not. It not only steps over legal boundaries, but you asswipes are conceding the moral high-ground, too.

And so long as guilt-by-association still exists, your douchebaggery is making me and other progressives look bad. So quit it.

That goes for other alleged liberals like Charles Carreon and Brett Kimberlin, too. Using legal machinations to silence critics does not serve liberalism well, and I'm ashamed to be on the same end of the political spectrum with these jerks.

Any other liberals here want to call out any other idiots on our own side? Feel free. Just please avoid the "conservatives are worse" line of argument, here. If you must go there, start a new thread for it.
I fully agree, Dave. Those "liberals" should be condemned, and prosecuted for any death threats. It's a responsibility of other liberals to condemn and oppose such actions, just as it a responsibility of conservatives to condemn their violence-prone fellows.

It's sometimes hard to define the limits if free speech, but death threats are clearly beyond the pale.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/11/2012 00:44:23
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2012 :  01:45:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

The SFN tends to be left-leaning, and we've had plenty of threads calling out conservatives for doing and/or saying dumb things, but it's time for some equality in criticism.

So, to all the liberals sending death threats to Brad Pitt's mother in response to her dumb anti-Obama letter: cut it the fuck out. That sort of censorious bullying is completely uncalled-for in an allegedly civilized nation. Disagreement (even strongly worded and possibly insulting) is approved of, harassment is not. It not only steps over legal boundaries, but you asswipes are conceding the moral high-ground, too.

And so long as guilt-by-association still exists, your douchebaggery is making me and other progressives look bad. So quit it.

That goes for other alleged liberals like Charles Carreon and Brett Kimberlin, too. Using legal machinations to silence critics does not serve liberalism well, and I'm ashamed to be on the same end of the political spectrum with these jerks.

Any other liberals here want to call out any other idiots on our own side? Feel free. Just please avoid the "conservatives are worse" line of argument, here. If you must go there, start a new thread for it.


Yeah, this is nuts. I wish I'd thought of it. Mind you, I'm not an american so I don't keep up with this stuff enough to find out enough to criticize the "left" for.

As for canadian politics, I don't care.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2012 :  07:40:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

There's no way you can stop irrational people from saying irrational things until you take away their rights to free speech.
So you've never changed your behavior unless your rights have been stripped from you?

Odds are, most of the people who are sending nasty stuff to Pitt's mom are generally rational people who did something thoughtless in the heat of the moment. The aim here, in part, is to try to ensure those people give a little more thought next time, so that hopefully, one day, it is only the genuine loons who will be sending death threats to anyone.

And the social shaming of unacceptable behavior removes no rights from anyone. No matter how many times I or others say, "what you've done is morally repugnant," it won't prevent anybody from sending violently hateful messages to little old ladies. If those who feel like doing so act on those feelings, they may have to contend with being shunned from polite society, but it's ultimately their choice and if they decide that they cannot express their ideas without crossing this particular moral (and legal) line, then the social consequences are on them.

Turns out that at least one of the people who sent a nasty Tweet is falling back on the excuse that "kill the bitch" means something other than what it appears to followers of Lady Gaga. However, as far as I can figure out with limited time, it appears that "kill the bitch" is Gaga's own interpretation of death threats she received from Muslims over a concert earlier this year, so no, it really does mean "kill the bitch," all of the Twitterer's protestations notwithstanding. But, xe deleted the Tweet anyway, because of the Twitter backlash. So maybe next time, xe will think twice.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2012 :  08:54:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree. What is really is being discussed, as I see it, is the necessity for being rational throughout our lives. Not only using rational reasoning in how we evaluate facts and data in discovering what we can determine what is true and false, we should also be rational in our social behavior. As skeptics see rationality is a requirement in science to further develop a better life, it should also a requirement in our social behavior for a productive interaction with others. Dave has raised a excellent topic.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2012 :  17:59:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

There's no way you can stop irrational people from saying irrational things until you take away their rights to free speech.
But you can counter it with more free speech, as Dave has done.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/11/2012 17:59:56
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2012 :  18:54:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

I agree. What is really is being discussed, as I see it, is the necessity for being rational throughout our lives. Not only using rational reasoning in how we evaluate facts and data in discovering what we can determine what is true and false, we should also be rational in our social behavior. As skeptics see rationality is a requirement in science to further develop a better life, it should also a requirement in our social behavior for a productive interaction with others.
With a focus on "our." This thread is about cleaning our own house(s). Liberalism in general. Skeptical liberals more specifically.

Clearly none of the four examples listed so far in this thread can be classified as the latter. But if someone wants to bring up such people, that'd be fine with me.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2012 :  02:27:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

So you've never changed your behavior unless your rights have been stripped from you?


True but, really, it's gonna take more than a topic on a message board they probably don't go to change anything.


Edited by - On fire for Christ on 07/12/2012 02:27:57
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2012 :  06:32:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

True but, really, it's gonna take more than a topic on a message board they probably don't go to change anything.
Should I nail a list of gripes to the door of DNC headquarters?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2012 :  13:58:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dammit, people, stop this nonsense. Not necessarily liberals, but the odds are good.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2012 :  15:22:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
Not necessarily liberals, but the odds are good.
Based on the graffiti they left, I'd say a likelier bet is anarchists.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2012 :  15:57:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And here is Ed Brayton on the nasty things said to Brad Pitt's mom:
The article does cite a handful of vile postings on Twitter aimed at her and those people really should drink a big glass of STFU. Criticism is entirely fair, especially since she said what she said publicly, but threats are never justified.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2012 :  16:47:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Based on the graffiti they left, I'd say a likelier bet is anarchists.
Actually, it was probably just kids who wouldn't really know a liberal from an anarchist. Not in any deep sense.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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