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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2012 :  02:41:21  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Image originally found here on the fstdt boards.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2012 :  05:07:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The parallels are eerie.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2012 :  09:46:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Problem. God is superior by far to any human being. When he commands you to do something for your own good, you do it, trusting in His wisdom, without question. This is not a relationship between two equals. If you believe in God you accept these things.

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2012 :  11:10:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Problem. God is superior by far to any human being. When he commands you to do something for your own good, you do it, trusting in His wisdom, without question. This is not a relationship between two equals. If you believe in God you accept these things.
An abusive husband doesn't view his wife as an equal either. In some abusive relationships, neither does the battered wife. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_person_syndrome

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2012 :  17:27:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Problem. God is superior by far to any human being. When he commands you to do something for your own good, you do it, trusting in His wisdom, without question. This is not a relationship between two equals. If you believe in God you accept these things.


I would say that not even an abusive husband would go for ordered genocide like your god has. And given that, in what way is god "superior by far to any human being"?

By power maybe, but not by morality.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2012 :  19:37:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by the_ignored

Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Problem. God is superior by far to any human being. When he commands you to do something for your own good, you do it, trusting in His wisdom, without question. This is not a relationship between two equals. If you believe in God you accept these things.


I would say that not even an abusive husband would go for ordered genocide like your god has. And given that, in what way is god "superior by far to any human being"?

By power maybe, but not by morality.


Is it that you don't understand the mindset of a religious person or that you do, but choose to just ignore it? Morality is given by God. Human morality is an arbitrary invention. So for an abusive husband imposing his will and his morality, whether he considers himself superior is irrelevant because he isn't. God is.
This is why these comparisons only work for outsiders disdainfully looking in on something they cannot understand.

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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2012 :  19:40:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Morality is given by God. Human morality is an arbitrary invention.

So god having babies killed is ok, but abortion isn't?

You'd better do some thinking about just who's showing "arbitrary" morality here.

EDIT: Also, you'd better do some thinking about just who is unable to "understand" something (in this case: morality) while you're at it.

Why is it moral to kill babies when god tells you, yet it's wrong to do it when a doctor does it?

Either way, they're fucking dead.

You people have subjective morality: Based on the whims of another being as opposed to being "inherently" right or wrong. If killing babies was objectively wrong, then god wouldn't do it himself.


It's all based on what you are told to do by a being who himself doesn't follow the same rules he lays for us.

What you worship as described by your fellow apologists is an amoral being, not a being of "superior" morality.


>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 08/05/2012 19:52:22
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2012 :  20:56:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Is it that you don't understand the mindset of a religious person or that you do, but choose to just ignore it?
Most people with a "religious mindset" don't actually put much thought into the metaphysics of their position(s). Why should "outsiders" be held to a higher standard when critiquing the "religious mindset?"
Morality is given by God. Human morality is an arbitrary invention.
If morality is given by God, then it's exactly as arbitrary as any human morality. Or is God beholden to some even higher power to deliver a specific set of truly objective moral rules?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2012 :  22:57:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to slow down here so you might understand a bit better. In this topic we are discussing the strength of the comparison in the original linked picture. I am not asserting that morality is given by God, or that abortion is bad etc. I am asserting that the dynamic of a relationship between an abusive husband/boyfriend and the battered wife/girlfriend is different than the relationship between God and his followers. And this is because of the BELIEF of the follower that God is superior, supernatural, infallible, omniscient being who is by definition good and always right. If you believe morality is given by Him, you trust in Him to do what is best. This superficial comparison to an emotionally abusive spouse doesn't bare up because the abuser is obviously not infallible and is merely a human being. This has nothing to do with what your personal religious beliefs are, it's about what the beliefs of the person/people in question are. If you do not understand that dynamic/power structure, then from the outside it may superficially resemble an abusive relationship.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2012 :  09:27:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

I'm going to slow down here so you might understand a bit better. In this topic we are discussing the strength of the comparison in the original linked picture. I am not asserting that morality is given by God, or that abortion is bad etc. I am asserting that the dynamic of a relationship between an abusive husband/boyfriend and the battered wife/girlfriend is different than the relationship between God and his followers. And this is because of the BELIEF of the follower that God is superior, supernatural, infallible, omniscient being who is by definition good and always right. If you believe morality is given by Him, you trust in Him to do what is best. This superficial comparison to an emotionally abusive spouse doesn't bare up because the abuser is obviously not infallible and is merely a human being. This has nothing to do with what your personal religious beliefs are, it's about what the beliefs of the person/people in question are. If you do not understand that dynamic/power structure, then from the outside it may superficially resemble an abusive relationship.
So apparently you just ignored the information on Battered Spouse Syndrome that you've been given. It's irrelevant that "the abuser is obviously not infallible and is merely a human being," because in both cases, the victims insist that might makes right and thus submit to their own abuse, just like you are doing right now.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2012 :  11:12:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a generalization of the Abrahamic religions, I think they nailed it in terms of an abusive relationship. In fact, this "relationship" with a mythical abusive god may be one of most enduring models for spousal abuse. And vice versa.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2012 :  14:38:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
So apparently you just ignored the information on Battered Spouse Syndrome that you've been given. It's irrelevant that "the abuser is obviously not infallible and is merely a human being," because in both cases, the victims insist that might makes right and thus submit to their own abuse, just like you are doing right now.


Nope, Christians aren't arguing might makes right. They're arguing that the good is god and god is the good, if and only if.

Euthyphro dilemma:

Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?

1. good implies preference of the gods (good independent of the gods)
2. preference of the gods implies good (good made by the gods) = might makes right

Augustine/Anselm/Aquinas: it's a false dichotomy, the nature of god is good, the two are logically equivalent

Aquinas:

(1) Every sin consists in the longing for a passing [ultimately unreal or false] good.
(2) Therefore, a sin implies poor understanding.
(3) God is omniscient (all-knowing) by definition.
(4) Therefore, God cannot sin.

I think it's perfectly logical. This definition of sin makes sense if there exists objective morality I think. The problem to me is that it requires the assumption of the existence of an omniscient god. (I'm sure they believe they've proven both of these elsewhere or take them as self-evident).

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
Edited by - Machi4velli on 08/06/2012 14:41:18
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2012 :  19:05:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Machi4velli

Originally posted by Dave W.
So apparently you just ignored the information on Battered Spouse Syndrome that you've been given. It's irrelevant that "the abuser is obviously not infallible and is merely a human being," because in both cases, the victims insist that might makes right and thus submit to their own abuse, just like you are doing right now.
Nope, Christians aren't arguing might makes right. They're arguing that the good is god and god is the good, if and only if.

Euthyphro dilemma:

Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?

1. good implies preference of the gods (good independent of the gods)
2. preference of the gods implies good (good made by the gods) = might makes right

Augustine/Anselm/Aquinas: it's a false dichotomy, the nature of god is good, the two are logically equivalent
Yeah, that doesn't resolve the dilemma, it just moves it back a step. What or who decided what the nature of God is? If God decides his own nature, then God can change his nature at any time and morality exists at his whim. If God's nature is fixed and immutable, then who made God that way? It's turtles all the way down, still.
Aquinas:

(1) Every sin consists in the longing for a passing [ultimately unreal or false] good.
(2) Therefore, a sin implies poor understanding.
(3) God is omniscient (all-knowing) by definition.
(4) Therefore, God cannot sin.
And that conclusion would be true even if God can decide to change false goods into true goods, in which case, might makes right.
I think it's perfectly logical. This definition of sin makes sense if there exists objective morality I think.
In which case, God is merely a reporter of what is sinful and what isn't, and he's not the ultimate arbiter of goodness.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2012 :  19:28:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

[quote]So apparently you just ignored the information on Battered Spouse Syndrome that you've been given. It's irrelevant that "the abuser is obviously not infallible and is merely a human being," because in both cases, the victims insist that might makes right and thus submit to their own abuse, just like you are doing right now.


Didn't ignore it, it's just still unconvincing. Do you not understand simple sentences? This is not a relationship between two human beings. No matter how much one idolizes the other, they are still people, and you can leave one person, find another etc, there are laws governing your behaviours. Unless the battered spouse really views the abuser as a God then this comparison is crap.

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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2012 :  21:02:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is not a relationship between two human beings

So the fuck what? Are you saying that if a human acted like biblegod allegedly acts, that it would then be wrong? Are you really saying that the morality of actions just depends on who is doing them?

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2012 :  21:57:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

This is not a relationship between two human beings. No matter how much one idolizes the other, they are still people, and you can leave one person, find another etc, there are laws governing your behaviours. Unless the battered spouse really views the abuser as a God then this comparison is crap.
The comparison isn't based on whether the victim views the abuser as god, but that the victim takes all the blame for their victimhood on themselves, exactly like Christians view themselves and their "sinful" nature. You consider yourself at fault for your predicament, because your abuser tells you that you're at fault. You've now defended your abuser as being above the law (presumably rightfully so). But the saddest part is that your abuser is a figment of your imagination.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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