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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2012 :  14:45:21  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Poltergeist Can science measure poltergeist activity. Like ghostly images how can one propose to measure human emotion and its effect on the environment as well as ones body. With the boom of Spiritualism many scientist and schorlars such as Myers, Sedgwick, Gurney, Fodor, did investigate. Some getting caught up in the true belief in Spirtualism or surcoming to the fraudulent side, making up figures, etc.

Because of this science has put aside the phenomena of ghosts and poltergeists. Institutions such as Rhine, Society for psycical reasearch, etc tend to focus on Pk. And while Poltergeist activity is a form of pk, the institutions focus more on controlled labortory tests instead of getting out into the field of reported phenomena. While we cannot replicate the phenomena we as people and cultures have observed these things.

so we leave it too pseudoscience and greedy reality show hunters putting another link into the ball and chain of Spiritualism. One day i hope some scientists will cut this chain and delve into a phenomenas that do not go away.

How can we measure if there is any effect on the environment from traumatic human emotion or pent up fustration of the teenage mind.

Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2012 :  15:25:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We can't measure something until we can show it exists. And without a reason to think it exists as such, we don't investigate.

It's like asking, "how can we measure if there is any effect on the environment from people playing chess?" We can't seem to find any effect on the environment from traumatic human emotion, much less measure it, anymore than we can measure the effect of chess on the environment.

We'd need to make a falsifiable hypothesis (one specific enough for us to design an experiment) about what that effect would look like and do said experiment.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2012 :  16:37:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
99% of ghost phenomena occur in places with tragic pasts. Most of your poltergeist cases are girls in the stage of puberty. Put documentaded cases together and you can see the similarities. Somehow human emotion has an effect. And why is it this that only certain minds can interput this effect.And oly certain girls can produce the phenomena.

so with this data propose a hypothesis. How can we measure human emotion and the effct on the environmeny?

One thing I definetly find in flaws of skeptics and these ghost hunters is there inabiity to stay longer than a day or a few hours. People think they could come and control the phenomena. I would love for Randi to stay in a haunted place for a year and see what he comes up with.
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2012 :  16:53:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by StormI would love for Randi to stay in a haunted place for a year and see what he comes up with.

Why a whole year when you don't even know how to measure anything in the first place? What a massive waste of time.

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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Storm
SFN Regular

USA
708 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2012 :  17:06:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Storm's Homepage Send Storm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most documented phenomena especially hauntings happen within the year. While we cannot measure the effect of emotions on the environment we can surley measure other phenomena associated with hauntings. Knockings, voices, smells. Surely we can document time, weatger conditions, temerature, state of mind etc. It would be no waste of time unless your just not interested in finding out whats going on.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2012 :  18:12:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Storm:
And why is it this that only certain minds can interput this effect.

Perhaps it requires an active imagination.
Storm:
Most documented phenomena especially hauntings happen within the year.

You mean while people are still missing a loved one?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2012 :  19:45:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Storm

99% of ghost phenomena occur in places with tragic pasts.
I think the causal link goes the other way from what you'd expect.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2012 :  20:57:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's kind of hard to devise an experiment to detect ghosts. If recording equipment detects nothing, the ghost crackpots will say that ghosts only appear to human beings or other animals as they are linked to us through some spiritual medium. But if you use people as your detecting equipment you have totally unreliable data.
If on the other hand your recording equipment detects some noises, smells, apparitions, it can be difficult or impossible to determine the cause. Even a ghostly apparition clearly captured on film wouldn't necessarily be a ghost. Simply because it conforms to our preconceived notions of what a ghost would appear to look like doesn't mean it's the remnant of a dead person.

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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2012 :  21:32:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Storm

Most documented phenomena especially hauntings happen within the year. While we cannot measure the effect of emotions on the environment we can surley measure other phenomena associated with hauntings. Knockings, voices, smells. Surely we can document time, weatger conditions, temerature, state of mind etc. It would be no waste of time unless your just not interested in finding out whats going on.


Ok, if we're to treat it as science, I think I can give a rough plan of action.

The first step, we need to establish that any phenomenon exists at all. You seem to be assuming it exists before anyone can demonstrate it on anecdotal evidence, which isn't objective enough for it to be taken seriously as science.

To accomplish this, set up long term audio and video monitoring devices (and any other monitoring devices we might think would be useful) in places thought to have hauntings and analogous places not known for that and see if you can find any difference between the two sets.

If there's no difference, we may as well assume there's no phenomenon at all -- or our monitoring devices weren't the right kind and we need to redo it differently. If there are differences, we should break them down, try to rule out each one with known phenomena.

If any differences remain, that gives us the cue on what questions we need to ask next, what sorts of things we need to monitor in future experiment.

This seems a relatively cheap thing to do, so it can be done with small funds, which is a necessity as no science can expect funding without an initial proof of existence of the phenomenon.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
Edited by - Machi4velli on 08/07/2012 21:35:55
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2012 :  09:58:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Storm
Most of your poltergeist cases are girls in the stage of puberty. Put documentaded cases together and you can see the similarities.
And the similarities are perfectly explainable. Neglected children will often act out in an effort to seek attention. In societies that marginalize women, adolescent girls are somewhat more prone to this behavior, sometimes lying or feign distress to attract attention to themselves. This happened during the Salem witch trials, in which the young accusers were all female. Children have also been caught faking poltergeist activity for the same reasons. Sometimes the parents are in on the deception, since if the media picks up their story they stand to profit from the attention. The Amityville Horror is the best known of such fabrications.

In short, we don't need to explain poltergeists because they are already sufficiently explained as hoaxes.

Storm, the only science needed to explain the paranormal is an understanding of human psychology.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/08/2012 10:00:26
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2012 :  11:34:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Fox Sisters were 12 and 15 when they started trying to scare their parents.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2012 :  11:45:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

The Fox Sisters were 12 and 15 when they started trying to scare their parents.
Another example: Elsie Wright was 16 years old and Frances Griffiths was 10 when they perpetrated their hoax of the Cottingley Fairies.

No doubt Storm sees these hoaxes as a distraction from "real" paranormal phenomena. What she fails to understand is that the exposed hoaxes serve to illuminate why we shouldn't believe there are any "real" phenomena.

Dave's link show's how people can be duped into experiencing paranormal sensations even when the events are hoaxed:
Margaret told her story of the origins of the mysterious "rappings" in a signed confession given to the press and published in New York World, October 21, 1888. In it, she explained...
"A great many people when they hear the rapping imagine at once that the spirits are touching them. It is a very common delusion. Some very wealthy people came to see me some years ago when I lived in Forty-second Street and I did some rappings for them. I made the spirit rap on the chair and one of the ladies cried out: "I feel the spirit tapping me on the shoulder." Of course that was pure imagination."
There is a lesson there, Storm, if you would only heed it.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/08/2012 11:53:33
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1265 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2012 :  01:14:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just because there have been hoaxes it still doens't follow that every incident is a hoax.

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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1883 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2012 :  04:51:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Just because there have been hoaxes it still doens't follow that every incident is a hoax.
Maybe. But since previous claims on paranormal activities have been revealed to be hoaxes it is a safe bet until evidence can show otherwise.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2012 :  05:25:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by moakley

Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Just because there have been hoaxes it still doens't follow that every incident is a hoax.
Maybe. But since previous claims on paranormal activities have been revealed to be hoaxes it is a safe bet until evidence can show otherwise.
Every time yet another such a poltergeist hoax is revealed (or actual positive evidence again simply fails to materialize), any new claim of poltergeists becomes an even more extraordinary claim, requiring even more extraordinary evidence. So far, I've never even seen "ordinary" evidence for poltergeists.

In most cases, it seems, there is an older child or younger teen around where poltergeists are reported, usually troubled kids. Troubled kids often throw things. Troubled kids in poltergeist cases throw things when others aren't around, then make up stories that place the blame elsewhere. That's the Occam's Razor explanation that best fits most poltergeist reports.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/09/2012 05:30:15
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2012 :  06:24:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why does everyone keep responding to these nonsense topics, Storm has been asking the exact same silly questions for years and your responses DO NOT REGISTER. Storm is a troll.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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