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 The Grinch Who Stole Charlie Brown's Christmas
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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1265 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2012 :  11:14:31  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A few people around the Physics Department break / study area were complaining yesterday about some Freethinker's group cancelling a school production of A Charlie Brown Christmas. My first thought was, "that sounds pretty silly. Now these guys have gone overboard, on par with Republicans attempting to cancel Sesame Street."

As with many things, of course, a very quick google search reveals a little more information. I didn't remember this but the story has a very Christian message, much more than the standard "be nice to people on Christmas" message that you see in most movies. That alone makes it of questionable legality. Then I found out this production wasn't an elementary school play like I had first thought, but it was a production at a local church! The school was planning a field trip to see it during class hours!

More here: The Grinch Who Stole Charlie Brown’s Christmas.

BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2012 :  11:47:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's amazing that people still mistake Christ Mass Holy Day as a religious event, its clealy a secular holiday, to use my favorite oxymoronic term.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2012 :  13:37:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1) Yeah. It's the religious nature of the story which makes it illegal. Had this been a field trip to see The Nutcracker, no one would have objected. 2) Yes, I have also heard comments from several atheists who say it's no big deal and going after Charlie Brown (or manger displays on government property, or whatever) makes atheists look bad. The proper response to such comments is to remind them that their opinion is irrelevant in the face of established Constitutional law. It's illegal. That's the only thing that matters.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2012 :  05:24:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

1) Yeah. It's the religious nature of the story which makes it illegal. Had this been a field trip to see The Nutcracker, no one would have objected. 2) Yes, I have also heard comments from several atheists who say it's no big deal and going after Charlie Brown (or manger displays on government property, or whatever) makes atheists look bad. The proper response to such comments is to remind them that their opinion is irrelevant in the face of established Constitutional law. It's illegal. That's the only thing that matters.
I wonder about the propriety of taking a public school class to a church. I guess it all depends on what happens there. I would not, for instance, object to such a class trip t study the architecture of a cathedral. Nor to see a secular play or hear a secular musical recital in a church.

Did secular humanist Charles Schultz actually write that play as a sectarian screed? The answer is apparently "yes":
Linus is reluctant about Charlie Brown's choice, but Charlie Brown is convinced that after decorating it, it will be just right for the play. They return to the school auditorium with the tree and everybody laughs at Charlie Brown. In desperation, Charlie Brown begins to wonder if he really knows what Christmas is all about. Linus states he can tell him, and recites the second chapter of the Gospel of Luke, verses 8 through 14 from the Authorized King James Version:

"'8And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10And the angel said unto them, Fear not; for, behold, I bring you tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord. 12And this shall be a sign unto you: Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. 13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace and goodwill towards men.'"

"...And that's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown."
So, really, this play is the equivalent of Christian evangelism -- in a church setting, yet. I'm glad the "field trip" was canceled.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2012 :  08:24:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Did secular humanist Charles Schultz actually write that play as a sectarian screed? The answer is apparently "yes"...
A Charlie Brown Christmas: 1965.

Schulz describes himself as a secular humanist: late 1980s.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2012 :  10:56:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's good to see that in this case violating the law by Christian zealots got smacked down.

Of course those who gain from this kind of divisiveness will use this to support the lies about their fictitious war on Christmas by Atheists. Which is a complete fabrication for it's obvious benefits for those who push it.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2012 :  22:31:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by HalfMooner

Did secular humanist Charles Schultz actually write that play as a sectarian screed? The answer is apparently "yes"...
A Charlie Brown Christmas: 1965.

Schulz describes himself as a secular humanist: late 1980s.
Ah, wisdom came to Schultz later in life, then, so he wasn't a hypocrite after all. Makes me feel better about the fellow.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2012 :  07:29:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by H. Humbert

1) Yeah. It's the religious nature of the story which makes it illegal. Had this been a field trip to see The Nutcracker, no one would have objected. 2) Yes, I have also heard comments from several atheists who say it's no big deal and going after Charlie Brown (or manger displays on government property, or whatever) makes atheists look bad. The proper response to such comments is to remind them that their opinion is irrelevant in the face of established Constitutional law. It's illegal. That's the only thing that matters.
I wonder about the propriety of taking a public school class to a church. I guess it all depends on what happens there. I would not, for instance, object to such a class trip t study the architecture of a cathedral. Nor to see a secular play or hear a secular musical recital in a church.

Did secular humanist Charles Schultz actually write that play as a sectarian screed? The answer is apparently "yes":
Linus is reluctant about Charlie Brown's choice, but Charlie Brown is convinced that after decorating it, it will be just right for the play. They return to the school auditorium with the tree and everybody laughs at Charlie Brown. In desperation, Charlie Brown begins to wonder if he really knows what Christmas is all about. Linus states he can tell him, and recites the second chapter of the Gospel of Luke, verses 8 through 14 from the Authorized King James Version:

"'8And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10And the angel said unto them, Fear not; for, behold, I bring you tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord. 12And this shall be a sign unto you: Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. 13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace and goodwill towards men.'"

"...And that's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown."
So, really, this play is the equivalent of Christian evangelism -- in a church setting, yet. I'm glad the "field trip" was canceled.


Not field trip. School play.

Whould have been better to do "You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown".

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2012 :  10:37:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer


Not field trip. School play.

. . .
Sorry, I missed that, though it was right there for me to read at the start of the OP. I was thinking the school kids were being taken to the church's production, not that they were taking their own show on the road, which strikes me as even worse. Is that public school so pious that they proselytize to church congregations?

So then the church venue was pretty much irrelevant, aside from illustrating the entirely Christian nature of an activity under the aegis of the state from start to finish -- it was the public school's production of a sectarian play that was the problem. I'm even more glad that it was quashed, understanding that.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2012 :  13:01:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Valiant Dancer


Not field trip. School play.
Sorry, I missed that, though it was right there for me to read at the start of the OP.
Yeah, but keep reading.
Then I found out this production wasn't an elementary school play like I had first thought, but it was a production at a local church! The school was planning a field trip to see it during class hours!
Valiant Dancer just didn't read carefully enough.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2012 :  06:47:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Valiant Dancer


Not field trip. School play.
Sorry, I missed that, though it was right there for me to read at the start of the OP.
Yeah, but keep reading.
Then I found out this production wasn't an elementary school play like I had first thought, but it was a production at a local church! The school was planning a field trip to see it during class hours!
Valiant Dancer just didn't read carefully enough.




Crap. Well, mark up another boo boo for me. I'll add it to the pile.

Still, an inappropriate use of school time. I think they need to have a visit from the Pastafarians to explain the error of their ways.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2012 :  20:35:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer


Still, an inappropriate use of school time. I think they need to have a visit from the Pastafarians to explain the error of their ways.
That would be nice, especially if somehow some would get the point as to why this is not. Their programmed responses presents quite a formidable defense for any enlightenment on why this is illegal and with what principals are involved.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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