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MisterMaggot
New Member
Fed Rep Yugoslavia
6 Posts |
 Posted - 02/18/2013 : 15:35:42
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It is illegal to have sex without consent, including when an individual is unable to give consent due to unconsciousness or intoxication. However I propose a moral dilemma for your consideration:
A drunk woman tells a sober man she wants to have sex with him. She is obviously drunk (slurred speech, staggering etc.) but still conscious. The man has sex with her. Is this man guilty of rape? Is the woman responsible for her actions?
1. Would the woman be guilty of rape if she were sober and the man drunk?
2. If the woman drinks and drives she is held responsible for her actions, therefore is she not responsible for her actions when consenting to sex?
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2013 : 16:37:20 [Permalink]
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If it isn't illegal, it damn should be. I know it's morally wrong as hell.
You should know that alcohol lowers inhibitions. People do things when they're drunk that they wouldn't when they're sober.
As to your questions:
1) Yes, she would/should be if the situations were reversed.
2)As I said: Alcohol lowers inhibitions. It also messes up one's judgement. Just as one shouldn't drink and drive which is a bad decision (one wouldn't ordinarily drive when one knows that one can't drive well) one shouldn't consent to sex when they're not in control of one's faculties. In this case however, those who she asks should be aware enough (and not a rapist looking for an excuse) to see this and refuse her "offer".
Just as friends don't let friends drive drunk, friends shouldn't let friends well, you know...
I suspect that at least as far as your views on women go, you'd probably find Vox Day's blog closer to your liking. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 02/18/2013 16:45:50 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2013 : 18:14:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MisterMaggot
A drunk woman tells a sober man she wants to have sex with him. She is obviously drunk (slurred speech, staggering etc.) but still conscious. The man has sex with her. Is this man guilty of rape? |
Yes. Where is the dilemma?| Is the woman responsible for her actions? |
Yes, but getting raped isn't an action. Where is the dilemma?| 1. Would the woman be guilty of rape if she were sober and the man drunk? |
Yes. Where is the dilemma?| 2. If the woman drinks and drives she is held responsible for her actions, therefore is she not responsible for her actions when consenting to sex? |
Getting raped is not an action, raping is an action. Asking for sex isn't an action, either, it's a request.
Note that nobody has a chance to say "no" before getting creamed by a random drunk driver. But men can (and do) say "no" to drunk women hitting on them. The fact that in one case the victim is drunk and in the other case the criminal is drunk doesn't mean that there's a "dilemma" to be found in assigning responsibility.
I'm sure this is another one of your drive-by deepities, but I'll ask you, anyway, MisterMaggot: if drunk women should be held responsible for being raped, shouldn't we arrest drunk tourists for being pick-pocketed during Mardi Gras?
Wait, why is being drunk a condition? The tourists chose to go to New Orleans. If they hadn't gone, then they wouldn't have been there to be robbed. So even if they're sober, victims of theft should be held responsible for being victims of theft, right? Is that how that logic works? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2013 : 20:17:51 [Permalink]
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Also, if your buddy asks you to punch him in the face, and you do, you're guilty of battery. Whether your buddy is drunk or not.
"Please commit a crime against me" doesn't magically make doing the act not a crime. It might make the victim less likely to report it or press charges, but "they were asking for it" isn't a good excuse. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2013 : 07:02:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MisterMaggot
It is illegal to have sex without consent, including when an individual is unable to give consent due to unconsciousness or intoxication. However I propose a moral dilemma for your consideration:
A drunk woman tells a sober man she wants to have sex with him. She is obviously drunk (slurred speech, staggering etc.) but still conscious. The man has sex with her. Is this man guilty of rape? Is the woman responsible for her actions?
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Yes. I'm not seeing a dillemma here. Gentlemen do not take advantage of (rape) impaired women.
1. Would the woman be guilty of rape if she were sober and the man drunk?
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Yes. Changes of gender does not modify the nature of the action. That it is statistically less likely to be reported is irrelevant to the equasion.
2. If the woman drinks and drives she is held responsible for her actions, therefore is she not responsible for her actions when consenting to sex?
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Yes. Because by having sex she is not placing others in danger of being killed or maimed. (It takes two to have sex. Only one to drive a car.... badly.) And the issue is with the person who take her up on the offer. That individual can tell that the woman in question is inebriated and not in adequate control of her faculties. The onus is on him to resist her advances.
I'll also say that raping while drunk is still a crime that the rapist should be held accountable for as the rapist commits physical assault in compelling sexual favors. (This covers the asshole on the east coast arguing that he could not have raped someone while drunk.)
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2013 : 07:15:53 [Permalink]
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| So what are your thoughts to the questions you posted? |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2013 : 19:28:07 [Permalink]
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SO if a woman gets drunk asks a man to have sex with her, he (maybe also drunk) agrees. You think if she has him arrested in the morning that would be morally justified? Sounds like a can of worms to me.
After that amount of time there's no way to prove she was drunk or HOW drunk. What would the legal limit for sex be? No way to prove she wouldn't do it if sober. What if he was also drunk?
If being drunk absolves her, why not him? - This all comes down to the idea that SEX is something a man DOES TO a woman, not something which 2 consenting people do together. Which is possibly the most sexist idea I've heard this week.
The only way to actually prevent this would be to ban alcohol. Or ban women from drinking alcohol. The other option is to be mature about drinking and simply say that if you get are mature enough to get drunk you are mature enough to accept responsibility of your own actions while drunk. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2013 : 20:58:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
SO if a woman gets drunk asks a man to have sex with her, he (maybe also drunk) agrees. You think if she has him arrested in the morning that would be morally justified? |
That's what courts of law are designed to discover.| Sounds like a can of worms to me. |
Sounds like you're ignoring the arguments, to me.| After that amount of time there's no way to prove she was drunk or HOW drunk. |
So witnesses don't count at trial? Why not? What's special about taking advantage of drunk women that the legal standards that apply to, say, battery can't be used?| What would the legal limit for sex be? |
The question is irrelevant if, as you claim, "there's no way to prove she was drunk or HOW drunk."| No way to prove she wouldn't do it if sober. |
The odds are extremely high that if she would have had sex with the guy when she was sober, she wouldn't be calling the cops to report a rape.| What if he was also drunk? |
What about it? Drunk people are held responsible for their actions.| If being drunk absolves her, why not him? |
It doesn't absolve her of anything, because she did nothing wrong. The idea that a woman getting raped is something she needs absolution from is the most sexist thing I've heard all week. But that's only because I haven't been reading the Old Testament this week, probably.| This all comes down to the idea that SEX is something a man DOES TO a woman, not something which 2 consenting people do together. |
If at least one of them is drunk, then it's not two consenting adults, and he did do something to her, called "rape."| Which is possibly the most sexist idea I've heard this week. |
Well, since you just made it up, you should know.
Note that the real argument is that having sex with someone (of any gender or sex) who is unable to give consent is rape. It has nothing to do with one being a man and the other a woman. The fact that one of them had rendered xirself incapable of consent through the consumption of alcohol is also irrelevant, since doing so is legal and carries nowhere close to an equivalent amount of moral culpability as rape.| The only way to actually prevent this would be to ban alcohol. Or ban women from drinking alcohol. |
Yeah, because men can't control themselves around drunk women. Poor little dears. Maybe we should mandate that women also not dress provocatively, so as to prevent men's natural lust from making them go all a-quiver at the sight of bare skin. I know! We can force women to wear burlap sacks, head-to-toe, so that men won't get any ideas. That'll work, right? Nobody ever gets raped in, say, Saudi Arabia, where alcohol is banned and women cover up for fear of their lives, right?| The other option is to be mature about drinking and simply say that if you get are mature enough to get drunk you are mature enough to accept responsibility of your own actions while drunk. |
Getting raped is not something a person should be held responsible for. Why do you sexist jerks keep trying to absolve the criminals and blame the victims?
Your sexism has obviously blinded you to a third option: be mature enough to recognize that you don't have to say "yes" to every request for sex that comes your way. Be mature enough to realize that not having sex with drunk people is much, much better than being a rapist. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2013 : 06:07:22 [Permalink]
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So, punching someone with permission may not be a chargeable offense if no real damage is done, but shooting someone with permission probably will be?
Consent may be available as a defense to an assault/battery charge, depending on the jurisdiction. Where available, if an individual has consented voluntarily to a particular act, then that same act generally cannot be asserted to constitute an assault and battery. But if the extent of the act exceeds the permission provided, it can still provide grounds for assault and battery charges. Also, it should be noted that courts scrutinize consent as a defense closely, and tend to find that harmful actions, even if consented to, violate public policy and should still be punished under assault, battery, or other laws. |
http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/assault-and-battery-defenses.html |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2013 : 06:42:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
So, punching someone with permission may not be a chargeable offense if no real damage is done, but shooting someone with permission probably will be?
Consent may be available as a defense to an assault/battery charge, depending on the jurisdiction. Where available, if an individual has consented voluntarily to a particular act, then that same act generally cannot be asserted to constitute an assault and battery. But if the extent of the act exceeds the permission provided, it can still provide grounds for assault and battery charges. Also, it should be noted that courts scrutinize consent as a defense closely, and tend to find that harmful actions, even if consented to, violate public policy and should still be punished under assault, battery, or other laws. |
http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/assault-and-battery-defenses.html
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I thought it might have an S&M out. If it is a sexual kink, it tends to be exempt from the law of assault and battery depending on force levels and safety issues.
I've seen a lot of kink when I was running that adult EBBS. way too much kink. You'd be surprised what passes for kink nowadays. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2013 : 09:08:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
So, punching someone with permission may not be a chargeable offense if no real damage is done, but shooting someone with permission probably will be?| Consent may be available as a defense to an assault/battery charge, depending on the jurisdiction. Where available, if an individual has consented voluntarily to a particular act, then that same act generally cannot be asserted to constitute an assault and battery. But if the extent of the act exceeds the permission provided, it can still provide grounds for assault and battery charges. Also, it should be noted that courts scrutinize consent as a defense closely, and tend to find that harmful actions, even if consented to, violate public policy and should still be punished under assault, battery, or other laws. |
http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/assault-and-battery-defenses.html |
Ah, so punching your drunk buddy is what's definitely a crime. If he's sober and asks for it, you might have a defense, depending.
Hey, Val, do the professional kink-masters refuse to do their thing with/to drunk clients? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2013 : 10:50:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Gorgo
So, punching someone with permission may not be a chargeable offense if no real damage is done, but shooting someone with permission probably will be?| Consent may be available as a defense to an assault/battery charge, depending on the jurisdiction. Where available, if an individual has consented voluntarily to a particular act, then that same act generally cannot be asserted to constitute an assault and battery. But if the extent of the act exceeds the permission provided, it can still provide grounds for assault and battery charges. Also, it should be noted that courts scrutinize consent as a defense closely, and tend to find that harmful actions, even if consented to, violate public policy and should still be punished under assault, battery, or other laws. |
http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/assault-and-battery-defenses.html |
Ah, so punching your drunk buddy is what's definitely a crime. If he's sober and asks for it, you might have a defense, depending.
Hey, Val, do the professional kink-masters refuse to do their thing with/to drunk clients?
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From what I understand, if you show up inebriated, you are refused service.
Its a liability issue. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2013 : 06:28:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Its a liability issue. |
And, apparently, a rape issue.
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That's the primary liability. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Sex with drunk women
