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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
 Posted - 04/24/2013 : 17:59:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
You're right, Dave, what was I thinking? Lets just go into wild speculation and accusations based on limited information, no harm can possibly come of it.
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Your being sarcastic right? What you really mean is taking the facts and evidence then apply logic and reason to those so we don't come up with some crazy made up belief that's not based on evidence and has no basis in reality or to what the truth is? Your not suggesting that are you? Someone who's signature line says "For we walk by faith, not by sight." Your actually suggesting that we look at this with our eyes open and examine the facts and not condemn these parents just because two babies died under their care and (along with some facts) it just feels right in our hearts? I do not believe it.
Who are you and how did you get access to that account? Dave, I think someone has hacked OFFC's account and is posting under his name. You might want to look into this! Check the IP addy's or whatever.
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There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2013 : 21:31:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
You're right, Dave, what was I thinking? Lets just go into wild speculation and accusations based on limited information, no harm can possibly come of it. |
What wild speculation? The judge has already flatly stated that this couple violated their probation, regardless the results of the autopsy.
What "harm" can come from pointing this out on an Internet forum? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2013 : 21:37:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Who are you and how did you get access to that account? Dave, I think someone has hacked OFFC's account and is posting under his name. You might want to look into this! Check the IP addy's or whatever. |
Nah. It's been obvious for years that OFfC has a double standard when it comes to Christians and atheists. According to him, this Christian couple shouldn't be virtually "lynched" without hard evidence, but if an atheist blogger claims to need help, wild, unevidenced speculation is good enough to suggest a scam.
It'd be funny if it weren't so pathetic. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2013 : 09:31:27 [Permalink]
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| I got to ask even if I'll get no reply. OFFC, Your the only one waiting for more information about that baby dying beyond what is already known and what has been reported. What additional information are you waiting for? Maybe the autopsy will come out with a report that the baby isn't really dead but is now miraculously alive and doing well. That would turn this atheist kangaroo court on it's head now wouldn't it. Just what in your wildest imagination can you come up with that could take these parents off the hook that would justify their praying for a delusional supernatural intervention that never came and it was acceptable to not seeking real and proven medical help as they were required? What could that possibly be? Is it even possible to dream up anything? |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2013 : 14:07:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
SS.... Have you ever heard the phrase "innocent until proven guilty"?
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But they were proven guilty once. Is killing 1 child not sufficient? |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
 Posted - 05/02/2013 : 14:13:26 [Permalink]
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| double post |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 05/02/2013 14:14:55 |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2013 : 17:38:02 [Permalink]
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| It really is tragic that there are hundreds of millions of people who have such convictions that leads to thousands of their children being murdered every year. There really is nothing new or different about these two. It's really no different than killing your teen daughter/s in honor killings for being seen talking to other boys or other imagined sins. I really don't see any benefit in sending these two to prison. It's not going to change one damn thing. Not for them or anyone else in the world. The killings will continue just as they always have. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2013 : 16:23:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
It really is tragic that there are hundreds of millions of people who have such convictions that leads to thousands of their children being murdered every year. There really is nothing new or different about these two. It's really no different than killing your teen daughter/s in honor killings for being seen talking to other boys or other imagined sins. I really don't see any benefit in sending these two to prison. It's not going to change one damn thing. Not for them or anyone else in the world. The killings will continue just as they always have.
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There are 6 other children in their care apparently, |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 13:08:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
There are 6 other children in their care apparently,
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This does have me conflicted. Giving them the benefit of the doubt has proven fatal. Does the church's preacher have any responsibility? What if another family in the church suffers the loss of a child from lack of health care? What I can say for sure is it's clear delusional thinking when held by idiots can kill and does have it's consequences. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2013 : 14:02:32 [Permalink]
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An article excerpt dated 4-27-13
,,,,,By again turning to praying instead of medicine - as the Schaibles told police - the couple allegedly broke the most explicit of Temin's orders, one that only they could enforce.
"You are to consult a medical practitioner whenever a child exhibits signs of being sick," Temin told them at sentencing, "and you are to follow the medical practitioner's advice to the letter." |
There you have an up dated article five days later than the first article. They were under specific instructions spelled out to them just what their probation requirements were.
What about the other children? It seems with what has been reported, if it is correct, they are not capable of being able to care for the medical needs of any of their children due to the affects of their religious beliefs. Most normal people care for a pet cat or dog better than the care these children are likely to have gotten or will receive if they need a doctor. Children can go permanently deaf from an untreated ear infection which children get, some frequently. As much as I hate to say it, they should no longer be allowed to be in charge of their children health care and if this baby died of untreated pneumonia they not only deserve jail time for violating their probation but should be prosecuted again for this death. Perhaps others in their church or other churches will take notice and with that it would have value. Giving them the benefit of the doubt is no longer an option that any prudent and rational person should be able to conclude. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2013 : 19:47:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Does the church's preacher have any responsibility? What if another family in the church suffers the loss of a child from lack of health care?
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According to this below, I'm now thinking absolutely yes. The members of their church didn't come up with these beliefs individually by themselves.
Link
Members of the First Century Gospel Church in Juniata Park, Herbert and Catherine Schaible believe medical care is a sin that shows a lack of faith in God. |
Apparently it's no sin at all if they let their babies die by not going to a doctor. Maybe their God was to busy helping some other deluded believer from their church score some points during a weekend high football game, I certain he believes his prayers were answered. So many people praying, so many requests, they'll never hold him responsible for missing a prayer or two, even when something like this happens. I say f*ck the God they prayed to that let them down, especially since it's obvious he doesn't exist. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2013 : 22:10:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
SS.... Have you ever heard the phrase "innocent until proven guilty"?
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But they were proven guilty once. Is killing 1 child not sufficient?
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are you seriously saying that if someone is guilty of one crime then they are automatically guilty of any crimes they are accused of in the future? |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2013 : 06:32:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
SS.... Have you ever heard the phrase "innocent until proven guilty"?
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But they were proven guilty once. Is killing 1 child not sufficient?
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are you seriously saying that if someone is guilty of one crime then they are automatically guilty of any crimes they are accused of in the future?
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No. He is questioning why they were given the opportunity to medically neglect another one of their children to death.
Now that additional information has surfaced concerning the details of the previous conviction (which they violated), I would expect loss of custody and lenghty jail sentances.
The Church's preacher is protected under the 1st Amendment. You can spout of God awful stupid things and as long as you don't advocate violence (and this was not violence, it was urging people to not seek medical attention, ergo urging stupidity on a massive scale), you can say it with no legal repercussions. The preacher said things. The parents made the giant leap of idiocy to actually follow what he said. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2013 : 22:45:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
are you seriously saying that if someone is guilty of one crime then they are automatically guilty of any crimes they are accused of in the future? |
No, he's not, but "prior bad acts" are only inadmissible if they are irrelevant to the case in question (for example, the fact the someone has been convicted of two non-violent burglaries is irrelevant to a case where he's charged with rape at gunpoint). In this case, the couple is being accused of almost exactly the same crime (just a different victim) as before, which is both relevant and highly damning.
Given how much you're defending the accused, it appears that their freedom to to neglect their childrens' health for their religious ideals trumps the value of their childrens' lives, in your mind. Is that an accurate assessment? In your opinion, OfFC, is the ability to making faith-based decisions for those under one's control more important than their lives? Is that the moral calculus with which you operate? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2013 : 21:19:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
In your opinion, OFFC, is the ability to making faith-based decisions for those under one's control more important than their lives? Is that the moral calculus with which you operate?
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I think we have waited long enough. It appears your not going to get an answer, Dave. You are not alone.
Moving on, this thread is far from over. As some have seen before, the legal system can move slowly. Link
The Reverend Nelson Clark, of Philadelphia’s First Century Gospel Church, told the local newspaper that the Schaibles are going to have to pray harder and truer next time, as the couple suffers from a “spiritual lack” that can only be remedied with more faith. They will do it again |
Point one.
Wow! pray harder and truer next time?? Let's do more than pray for God to heal, let's see to it there is no next time. We have the ability to prevent a "next time". That has started, they no longer have custody. Rather saying next time, I would rather hope the court system comes through this time and a less delusional part of our society in power will be able to make sure there is not another next time, for these parents now and any parents in the future. No one should be so foolish enough to buy into what these parents have bought into from people like Reverend Charlatan Nelson Clark and tens of thousands of others like him, after reading about this.
A charlatan (also called swindler or mountebank) is a person practicing quackery or some similar confidence trick in order to obtain money, fame or other advantages via some form of pretense or deception. |
Point two from article linked quote above.
So here we have it, the real cause of this baby's death according to that Charlatan Nelson Clark, from their very church. According to this Charlatan's own words, the parents are guilty of lacking sufficient faith. That is enough to make me sick to my stomach. Such "in me face" arrogance from this degenerate "Reverend", IMO a despicable human being, who pretends to know the strength their faith and to know that their faith was short of what is the required level which their God deems necessary to grace them with his healing their 8 month baby. What kind of God would do that? Certainly the God in the bible could. That is evident from what that God has done documented in the Bible and written in leviticus, just for starters.
Think about how that baby had to suffered through his illness until his body shut down and while his parent futilely prayed. What a very sorry way to die. While they knelt kneeling and prayed for the very intervention Mr.Charlatan apparently preached to them would come, he now stands publicly in judgment of them, declaring what they did wrong. How could HE have a clue to what level of faith they hold in their hearts? Maybe they didn't give enough money suggesting a lesser level of faith. The reality is they are guilty of believing in a con-man and he now has washed his hands of any responsibility. How about that?
No one is allowed to even think of asking, out respect of his position as a spiritual leader, just how or where he comes up with this gem of a fact. bullshit lie. Everyone is just suppose to accept his enlightened bit of made up crap, to explain why this baby died. On one hand, this Charlatan presumably claims that no man can know the true nature of God, and on the other hand pulls this charade and claims to know God's own assessment of their faith and that it was not strong enough. Because of that lack of faith not being strong enough, an innocent baby ended up dying a painful agonizing death. What could have this God of theirs be thinking? "HUMMM! Let me see here, their faith is not strong enough and I can see it can be stronger, so I'll let their baby die so they will do better next time"? That there can be loving and caring human beings with children that can buy this level of absurd logic is simple dumbfounding for me and should be for any skeptical logical thinker who has the courage to not listen to me or Charlatans but to see how sick one has to be to believe this explanation.
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There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Second Child Death for Convicted Faith-Healing Cou
