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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1264 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  11:34:11  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A couple questions for Convinced, from this thread: many of us here have read the Christian Bible. Some of us have read it many times and in several different versions.

Which version do you use?

Where does it say that God gives us knowledge of His existence or of the bible's divine origin?

What would you recommend an atheist do who is attempting to know God?

If God hasn't given me this knowledge, do you believe am I sentenced to hell? For how long? Do you believe that is fair, just, or good?

What do you mean by "the seeker driven theology?"

Thank you!

Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  14:42:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Boron10

A couple questions for Convinced, from this thread: many of us here have read the Christian Bible. Some of us have read it many times and in several different versions.

Which version do you use?
I usually use the NIV84, ESV or NASB for study. I also like the Amplified, KJV, NKJV for reading. I would not use a paraphrased bible like The Message. I only use direct translations from the biblical text. In the end most translators do their best to convey in English what the bible says in the original languages. I have no conspiracy theories about this.

Where does it say that God gives us knowledge of His existence or of the bible's divine origin?
1 Ro 18-32says everyone knows God exists. 1Cor2 talks about how we believe what God has written.

What would you recommend an atheist do who is attempting to know God?
Study the bible. Heb 4:11-13 says it is Godís word that penetrates the heart. Rom 10 says we know the truth by hearing the word of God. So reading the bible is the key. I would start with reading John a couple of times and then ask yourself who Jesus is. Talking to Christians will help you understand as well. There is a story in Acts 8 where an Ethiopian is reading the scriptures and God tells Phillip to go to him and the Ethiopian askes Philip to explain what he is reading. After Philip tells him the Ethiopian is saved and baptized. So God uses others to help explain his word.

If God hasn't given me this knowledge, do you believe am I sentenced to hell? For how long? Do you believe that is fair, just, or good?
God says that without repentance and faith you cannot be saved from eternal punishment in hell. So if you are not a Christian God will send you to hell for eternity.

If you are a Christian Jesus received the punishment for your sins and awful works as if he had committed them and Jesus goodness, good works and sinless life is attributed to you as if you had lived it. Everyone is judged by works, everyone gets into heaven by works. The problem is your works are not good enough because we are sinners, not because we have sinned but we sin because we are sinners (we have a sin nature). Everyone deserves hell but no one needs to go. God made a way so He could be Just and Merciful at the same time.

As far as if I think it is just or good, I say who cares. We need to be concerned with what God thinks of it. The bible says it is just and fair. The wages of sin is death; he is showing mercy by not killing all unbelievers on the planet right now for their sin (breaking godís laws). God is showing grace to sinful humanity by sparing their life so he can save some.

Do you know the true gospel message the Bible describes?


What do you mean by "the seeker driven theology?"
The Rick Warren theology that church is for non-believers and churches should design services so non-believers are comfortable coming. It results in never telling them the gospel, because telling them they are sinners will not make them want to stay. Joel Osteen, Andy Stanley, Perry Noble etc. are in this group.

The problem with this idea is it is directly opposed to the Biblical description of the local church congregation. Church services are for the Christians to equip them to go out and make disciples. Not wait for them to come into the building. Non-believers are surely welcome, but if they stay they should hear the gospel message.

Most seeker sensitive churches have sermons that are just self-help advice that you can find anywhere with some scripture sprinkled in to make it look good but the gospel is never preached.

Edited to add story in Acts 8:26-40.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
Edited by - Convinced on 06/18/2013 14:56:19
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  17:41:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Boron10
[quote]What would you recommend an atheist do who is attempting to know God?
Study the bible. Heb 4:11-13 says it is Godís word that penetrates the heart. Rom 10 says we know the truth by hearing the word of God. So reading the bible is the key. I would start with reading John a couple of times and then ask yourself who Jesus is. Talking to Christians will help you understand as well. There is a story in Acts 8 where an Ethiopian is reading the scriptures and God tells Phillip to go to him and the Ethiopian askes Philip to explain what he is reading. After Philip tells him the Ethiopian is saved and baptized. So God uses others to help explain his word.

So, if I read the Bible and I am not convinced or converted by the reading and even the study of it, does that God simply did not do the work for me, and therefore I'm doomed for Hell anyway? Even if I try - and fail - to believe?

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  18:04:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Siberia

Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Boron10
[quote]What would you recommend an atheist do who is attempting to know God?
Study the bible. Heb 4:11-13 says it is Godís word that penetrates the heart. Rom 10 says we know the truth by hearing the word of God. So reading the bible is the key. I would start with reading John a couple of times and then ask yourself who Jesus is. Talking to Christians will help you understand as well. There is a story in Acts 8 where an Ethiopian is reading the scriptures and God tells Phillip to go to him and the Ethiopian askes Philip to explain what he is reading. After Philip tells him the Ethiopian is saved and baptized. So God uses others to help explain his word.

So, if I read the Bible and I am not convinced or converted by the reading and even the study of it, does that God simply did not do the work for me, and therefore I'm doomed for Hell anyway? Even if I try - and fail - to believe?
You are condemned already. Jn 3:18. It is like two people that fall overboard a ship in the middle of the ocean. The ship comes by and a life preserver is thrown to the 1st person. The 1st person grabs the life preserver and is hauled aboard and is saved. A life preserver is thrown around the 2nd person and the second person is pulled in the boat and is saved. The difference is the 1st person was saved by their own decision. It was their choice to be saved or not. The 2nd person was saved but did not have a choice. If we have a choice then we are glorified and not God. The 1st person gets to put God on trial and decide if his salvation is good enough or just, the second person has no choice and is totally Gods decision. This is how I understand the Bible. I heard this analogy somewhere and is not mine.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  18:28:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Siberia

Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Boron10
[quote]What would you recommend an atheist do who is attempting to know God?
Study the bible. Heb 4:11-13 says it is Godís word that penetrates the heart. Rom 10 says we know the truth by hearing the word of God. So reading the bible is the key. I would start with reading John a couple of times and then ask yourself who Jesus is. Talking to Christians will help you understand as well. There is a story in Acts 8 where an Ethiopian is reading the scriptures and God tells Phillip to go to him and the Ethiopian askes Philip to explain what he is reading. After Philip tells him the Ethiopian is saved and baptized. So God uses others to help explain his word.

So, if I read the Bible and I am not convinced or converted by the reading and even the study of it, does that God simply did not do the work for me, and therefore I'm doomed for Hell anyway? Even if I try - and fail - to believe?
You are condemned already. Jn 3:18. It is like two people that fall overboard a ship in the middle of the ocean. The ship comes by and a life preserver is thrown to the 1st person. The 1st person grabs the life preserver and is hauled aboard and is saved. A life preserver is thrown around the 2nd person and the second person is pulled in the boat and is saved. The difference is the 1st person was saved by their own decision. It was their choice to be saved or not. The 2nd person was saved but did not have a choice. If we have a choice then we are glorified and not God. The 1st person gets to put God on trial and decide if his salvation is good enough or just, the second person has no choice and is totally Gods decision. This is how I understand the Bible. I heard this analogy somewhere and is not mine.

So if a third person is not anywhere near the rescue boat, and can't grab the lifesaver, that third person will simply die. Which, OK, in a drowning is exactly what happens. But God's life-saving boat - so to speak - is supposed to be perfect, so... he'd be able to reach to everyone. And that isn't what happens.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  18:54:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Siberia

Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Siberia

Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Boron10
[quote]What would you recommend an atheist do who is attempting to know God?
Study the bible. Heb 4:11-13 says it is Godís word that penetrates the heart. Rom 10 says we know the truth by hearing the word of God. So reading the bible is the key. I would start with reading John a couple of times and then ask yourself who Jesus is. Talking to Christians will help you understand as well. There is a story in Acts 8 where an Ethiopian is reading the scriptures and God tells Phillip to go to him and the Ethiopian askes Philip to explain what he is reading. After Philip tells him the Ethiopian is saved and baptized. So God uses others to help explain his word.

So, if I read the Bible and I am not convinced or converted by the reading and even the study of it, does that God simply did not do the work for me, and therefore I'm doomed for Hell anyway? Even if I try - and fail - to believe?
You are condemned already. Jn 3:18. It is like two people that fall overboard a ship in the middle of the ocean. The ship comes by and a life preserver is thrown to the 1st person. The 1st person grabs the life preserver and is hauled aboard and is saved. A life preserver is thrown around the 2nd person and the second person is pulled in the boat and is saved. The difference is the 1st person was saved by their own decision. It was their choice to be saved or not. The 2nd person was saved but did not have a choice. If we have a choice then we are glorified and not God. The 1st person gets to put God on trial and decide if his salvation is good enough or just, the second person has no choice and is totally Gods decision. This is how I understand the Bible. I heard this analogy somewhere and is not mine.

So if a third person is not anywhere near the rescue boat, and can't grab the lifesaver, that third person will simply die. Which, OK, in a drowning is exactly what happens. But God's life-saving boat - so to speak - is supposed to be perfect, so... he'd be able to reach to everyone. And that isn't what happens.
What are you saying is perfect? I don't think I understand your statement. Are you talking about universal salvation?

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1451 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  20:49:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm doomed to hell if I don't accept selective interpretations of translated contradictory politically-influenced redacted ancient ramblings, eh? Whee.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  22:19:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

You are condemned already. Jn 3:18. It is like two people that fall overboard a ship in the middle of the ocean. The ship comes by and a life preserver is thrown to the 1st person. The 1st person grabs the life preserver and is hauled aboard and is saved. A life preserver is thrown around the 2nd person and the second person is pulled in the boat and is saved. The difference is the 1st person was saved by their own decision. It was their choice to be saved or not. The 2nd person was saved but did not have a choice. If we have a choice then we are glorified and not God. The 1st person gets to put God on trial and decide if his salvation is good enough or just, the second person has no choice and is totally Gods decision. This is how I understand the Bible. I heard this analogy somewhere and is not mine.
So some people really are reprobates, and unsavable no matter what. And God made these decisions - who gets salvation and who doesn't - before anyone was even born, thanks to his omniscience, and we cannot know whether we're reprobates or not because the falling-overboard metaphor is hardly ever so clear-cut in real life. Therefore, whether I get saved or not isn't up to me at all, regardless of what order I'm thrown a life preserver (because I can't know whether I'm first or second), and punishment in Hell for eternity for failing to be saved (for which I really have no control) is simply and inarguably cruel.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  06:49:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Siberia

Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Boron10
[quote]What would you recommend an atheist do who is attempting to know God?
Study the bible. Heb 4:11-13 says it is Godís word that penetrates the heart. Rom 10 says we know the truth by hearing the word of God. So reading the bible is the key. I would start with reading John a couple of times and then ask yourself who Jesus is. Talking to Christians will help you understand as well. There is a story in Acts 8 where an Ethiopian is reading the scriptures and God tells Phillip to go to him and the Ethiopian askes Philip to explain what he is reading. After Philip tells him the Ethiopian is saved and baptized. So God uses others to help explain his word.

So, if I read the Bible and I am not convinced or converted by the reading and even the study of it, does that God simply did not do the work for me, and therefore I'm doomed for Hell anyway? Even if I try - and fail - to believe?


I went to a Free Methodist church once, the sign out front said "The most dangerous place on earth!" Meaning that once you heard the word, you are on the hook for eternity.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  07:45:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Convinced

You are condemned already. Jn 3:18. It is like two people that fall overboard a ship in the middle of the ocean. The ship comes by and a life preserver is thrown to the 1st person. The 1st person grabs the life preserver and is hauled aboard and is saved. A life preserver is thrown around the 2nd person and the second person is pulled in the boat and is saved. The difference is the 1st person was saved by their own decision. It was their choice to be saved or not. The 2nd person was saved but did not have a choice. If we have a choice then we are glorified and not God. The 1st person gets to put God on trial and decide if his salvation is good enough or just, the second person has no choice and is totally Gods decision. This is how I understand the Bible. I heard this analogy somewhere and is not mine.
So some people really are reprobates, and unsavable no matter what. And God made these decisions - who gets salvation and who doesn't - before anyone was even born, thanks to his omniscience, and we cannot know whether we're reprobates or not because the falling-overboard metaphor is hardly ever so clear-cut in real life. Therefore, whether I get saved or not isn't up to me at all, regardless of what order I'm thrown a life preserver (because I can't know whether I'm first or second), and punishment in Hell for eternity for failing to be saved (for which I really have no control) is simply and inarguably cruel.
This is not true. We are all reprobates, even Christians sin. The Bible is clear that you can have assurance of salvation 1Jn makes this clear. All metaphors are limited and cannot get at all the aspects of biblical doctrine. There are two doctrines in the Bible that seem to contradict each other. There are passages about election and predestination and there are passages that tell us to go and make disciples, preach the gospel and all that call on the Lord will be saved. These seem to be contradictory. The following quote is from Charles Spurgeon on this dilemma taken from this.

Not only are there a few cardinal doctrines, by which we can steer our ship North, South, East, or West, but as we study the Word, we shall begin to learn something about the North-west and North-east, and all else that lies between the four cardinal points. The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. ~ Charles Spurgeon

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  07:49:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by ThorGoLucky

I'm doomed to hell if I don't accept selective interpretations of translated contradictory politically-influenced redacted ancient ramblings, eh? Whee.
No. People go to hell because it is the just punishment for sin. If God sent everyone to hell He would still be good and just. The fact that he does save people through Jesus is a testimony to His love and mercy.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  10:07:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

This is not true. We are all reprobates, even Christians sin.
"Reprobate" doesn't mean "one who sins," it means "one who is rejected by God." Reprobates are people with no hope of salvation.
The Bible is clear that you can have assurance of salvation 1Jn makes this clear. All metaphors are limited and cannot get at all the aspects of biblical doctrine. There are two doctrines in the Bible that seem to contradict each other. There are passages about election and predestination and there are passages that tell us to go and make disciples, preach the gospel and all that call on the Lord will be saved. These seem to be contradictory.
Actually, they don't seem contradictory at all if God knew the only way for some people to be saved is to have others preach at them.
The following quote is from Charles Spurgeon on this dilemma taken from this.
Not only are there a few cardinal doctrines, by which we can steer our ship North, South, East, or West, but as we study the Word, we shall begin to learn something about the North-west and North-east, and all else that lies between the four cardinal points. The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. ~ Charles Spurgeon
Yeah, that doesn't actually explain anything, it just demonstrates Spurgeon's wishful thinking.

Predestination is only a problem if there is a punishment for people who don't meet the standard. Scratch that: predestination is only a problem for people who think (bizarrely) that humans are responsible for meeting a standard of behavior created by the same being that purposefully created within us the propensity for failure. God created evil, yet we're the ones who burn for it. Really, that's a problem whether people have free will or not - but without it, we just look like puppets marching into Hell, which is much more distasteful than if we "choose" to go there.

Of course, if God knows before we're born where we'll end up, then that choice is illusory anyway. Choosing a path that God didn't foresee would make him wrong, which is impossible, yes?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  10:11:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

No. People go to hell because it is the just punishment for sin. If God sent everyone to hell He would still be good and just.
Spoken like a beaten spouse.
The fact that he does save people through Jesus is a testimony to His love and mercy.
If God allows even one person to be eternally punished for God's choices, then God is a moral monster deserving of nothing but scorn. "Saving" people doesn't mitigate that infinite evil.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  11:15:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.Reprobate" doesn't mean "one who sins," it means "one who is rejected by God." Reprobates are people with no hope of salvation.
It also has a definition of morally unprincipled which I equate to sin. There is nobody without hope of salvation. In fact if you repent and believe you will be saved and know your eternal destination.
Actually, they don't seem contradictory at all if God knew the only way for some people to be saved is to have others preach at them.
Agreed, but not everyone is converted by preaching. Everyone is converted by the gospel message. It is the power to save.
Predestination is only a problem if there is a punishment for people who don't meet the standard. Scratch that: predestination is only a problem for people who think (bizarrely) that humans are responsible for meeting a standard of behavior created by the same being that purposefully created within us the propensity for failure. God created evil, yet we're the ones who burn for it.
So you donít think you are responsible for the bad things you do?
Really, that's a problem whether people have free will or not - but without it, we just look like puppets marching into Hell, which is much more distasteful than if we "choose" to go there.
If God exists and has the authority to run things as he sees fit, do you think you have the right to question him?
Of course, if God knows before we're born where we'll end up, then that choice is illusory anyway. Choosing a path that God didn't foresee would make him wrong, which is impossible, yes?
God knows our future but that does not mean that he directs every detail of our lives. I have free will to choose to go to the movies or not, god does not direct things like that as far as I can see in the Bible. He just knows what we would choose.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  11:20:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Convinced

No. People go to hell because it is the just punishment for sin. If God sent everyone to hell He would still be good and just.
Spoken like a beaten spouse.
Abused spouses don't deserve to be beaten. Everyone deserves hell.

If God allows even one person to be eternally punished for God's choices, then God is a moral monster deserving of nothing but scorn. "Saving" people doesn't mitigate that infinite evil.
It is not Gods choice that you sin. We sin all on our own. Everyone deserves punishment in hell for the sins they commit. You are responsible for your sin, not God.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

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Posted - 06/19/2013 :  11:48:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Convinced

Originally posted by Dave W.Reprobate" doesn't mean "one who sins," it means "one who is rejected by God." Reprobates are people with no hope of salvation.
It also has a definition of morally unprincipled...
Not as used in the Bible, it doesn't.
Predestination is only a problem if there is a punishment for people who don't meet the standard. Scratch that: predestination is only a problem for people who think (bizarrely) that humans are responsible for meeting a standard of behavior created by the same being that purposefully created within us the propensity for failure. God created evil, yet we're the ones who burn for it.
So you donít think you are responsible for the bad things you do?
There's a big difference between "bad things" and "sin," but nevermind that for now.

If I give a gun to a toddler, and it goes off, I'd certainly be responsible for that. If we are like children compared to God's infinite wisdom, then God has given us a gun in the form of the ability to sin. God created the very idea of sin. It's all on him, especially since he could have chosen otherwise.
If God exists and has the authority to run things as he sees fit, do you think you have the right to question him?
Absolutely! In fact, when faced with an autocrat who holds the power of life and death, that's the most important time to question! Do you think the people suffering under brutal dictatorships around the world should just suck it up and not complain?

Don't you think a loving God would welcome questions and answer them with perfect patience? It would mean that we're using the brains he gave us, and not just following him like sheep.
God knows our future but that does not mean that he directs every detail of our lives. I have free will to choose to go to the movies or not, god does not direct things like that as far as I can see in the Bible. He just knows what we would choose.
And so we cannot choose differently. If God cannot be wrong, and he knew millennia ago that I would now be typing this very sentence, then I can't do anything different. If I'd typed a different sentence, God would have been mistaken. Free will and inerrant omniscience are logically opposed.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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