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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
 Posted - 06/20/2013 : 20:31:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
The fact that some of you think that the nasty bully described in the Bible is all about love and mercy actually speaks volumes about you and your character. |
Put another way: even if the god described in the Bible exists, why would anyone want to follow and/or praise him? I get the whole "eternal life in paradise" motivator, but the cost - in terms of having to applaud dirty tricks played on my fellow humans throughout history - is just too large.
Besides, that god would never buy my conversion, anyway. If Jesus was merely mortal, then god knows I could never sincerely sign off on a blood sacrifice for my personal salvation. And if Jesus was divine, then it wasn't a sacrifice at all, but play-acting and the Gospel message is a lie. So I am without question reprobate, from a New Testament point-of-view. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 20:56:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
Originally posted by Convinced
| No, they were denied knowledge of evil, and so couldn't make a informed choice. They were coerced by a non-human (without free will) into disobeying a law about which they were made purposefully ignorant of the consequences. They were purposefully set up by god to fail, and thus shoulder none of the responsibility. They were patsies. |
Can you support this with some text?
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Sure. |
Show me where the text says Adam and Eve are not responsible for their sin.
Gen 2:9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Then,
Gen 3:4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Note that the serpent didn't lie. God said Adam and Eve would die and they did not, just as the serpent said. The serpent said they would know good and evil - implying they didn't know before - and they did, once they ate the fruit. |
Adam and Eve certainly did die. If not can you let me know where they are living.
Also,
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Which pretty much admits that Adam and Even knew nothing of evil and sin until they sinned. For which they were punished as well as their descendants. Forever.
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Adam and Eve were told not to eat of that one tree. They disobeyed. Show me anywhere in the bible where it says Adam and Eve are not responsible for their sin. Your theology is not supported by the text.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 20:58:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
Oh, and on the hardened hearts,
Ex 10:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them
Ex 10:20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.
Oh, this one is fun too:
Joshua 11:20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.
Feel the love!
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Yes I know God hardened hearts. Can you show me where anyone sinned because of it? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 21:03:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Show me where the text says Adam and Eve are not responsible for their sin. |
Are you unwilling to follow the logical chain to that conclusion, or are you unable to? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 21:05:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Siberia
Originally posted by Convinced
| No, they were denied knowledge of evil, and so couldn't make a informed choice. They were coerced by a non-human (without free will) into disobeying a law about which they were made purposefully ignorant of the consequences. They were purposefully set up by god to fail, and thus shoulder none of the responsibility. They were patsies. |
Can you support this with some text? |
Sure. |
Yeah, it's impossible that Convinced doesn't know exactly the text I was talking about, but just doesn't see the logical conclusions based upon that text. Like the inescapable conclusion that if one doesn't have knowledge of evil, one cannot possibly understand what "sin" is or comprehend its consequences such that one could reasonably be held responsible for sinning. A sin, under such circumstances, would at worst be accidental, due to ignorance not intent, and so should be punished differently (like the difference between negligent homicide and premeditated murder).
But worse than that: God created the garden, planted the unguarded tree there, granted the snake full access, kept Adam and Eve clueless, knew what was going to happen down to the movement of every hair on Eve's head even before he divided night from day, yet still got petulantly angry and punished humankind forever after. It's the story of an insane, despotic bully and his blameless victims.
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This is your interpretation of the text. My point is that the text should interpret other text. Whenever Adam and Eve are referenced in the Bible they are always held responsible for what they did. God held them responsible. So you can disagree, but you cannot say the Bible says they are not responsible. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 21:19:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Show me where the text says Adam and Eve are not responsible for their sin. |
Are you unwilling to follow the logical chain to that conclusion, or are you unable to?
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I understand your reasoning but it contradicts what the Bible says about the event. I will trust what the bible says about the event over your conclusions. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 21:55:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
You're mistaken. I disbelieve in your god because of the sheer volume of missing evidence. I think the Bible is a terrible guide to morality because of the horror stories contained within which are proclaimed as virtuous.
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I'm not mistaken because I didn't suggest that. I am saying that discussing the morality of something which may or may not be truthful is pointless compared to discussing whether it is true or not. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 22:13:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
...but you cannot say the Bible says they are not responsible. |
I've never said any such thing: the Bible makes it clear (taking the premises as given and following the logic through) that they are not responsible, but places the responsibility on them anyway. That is what makes it such a horrible book: in almost every instance, the Bible's message runs contrary to the empathic moral calculus. "Turn the other cheek" and "do unto others" are awesome pieces of moral advice, but guess what: following them will get a person no closer to heaven than I am right now. No, instead, to guarantee yourself a spot in paradise forever, you've got to agree that a sickening and barbaric blood sacrifice was a necessary repayment for violations of a suite of arbitrary rules and that you're guilty too, just because some mythical people a zillion generations ago were duped by a trickster who had god's permission.
In other words, being a wonderful person to other real-life people scores no points at all, you instead have to force yourself to believe that pure evil is good. It's disgusting.| I understand your reasoning but it contradicts what the Bible says about the event. I will trust what the bible says about the event over your conclusions. |
Why do you think your faith is a better indicator of moral truth than my logic? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 22:19:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I'm not mistaken because I didn't suggest that. I am saying that discussing the morality of something which may or may not be truthful is pointless compared to discussing whether it is true or not. |
How many times have I pointed out why I think the Bible in general is not credible? It's not credible because it contradicts the available evidence, and because it contradicts itself. We're apparently done with that conversation, because nobody has stepped up to provide supporting evidence or argument that the Bible is true, and only one person has offered their own faith as justification.
So now we've moved on to the "god is a moral monster" portion of the discussion, and you're just annoyed because you're late, again. 
Please, if you wish to go back and provide objective evidence or logical argument in favor of the Bible, go right ahead. I would be ecstatic to see some! |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 22:48:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by ThorGoLucky
I'm doomed to hell if I don't accept selective interpretations of translated contradictory politically-influenced redacted ancient ramblings, eh? Whee.
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No. People go to hell because it is the just punishment for sin. If God sent everyone to hell He would still be good and just. The fact that he does save people through Jesus is a testimony to His love and mercy.
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What sin? Are you talking about the man-made concept of original sin, where we're all inherently corrupted magically? Show me the credible evidence. How can you measure sin between people objectively?
Sin = homeopathy: There's nothing to it. A man-made fabrication. Pathetic.
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2013 : 08:50:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
...but you cannot say the Bible says they are not responsible. |
I've never said any such thing: the Bible makes it clear (taking the premises as given and following the logic through) that they are not responsible, but places the responsibility on them anyway. That is what makes it such a horrible book: in almost every instance, the Bible's message runs contrary to the empathic moral calculus. "Turn the other cheek" and "do unto others" are awesome pieces of moral advice, but guess what: following them will get a person no closer to heaven than I am right now. |
Because those are works. Salvation is a gift, you cannot work for it.
| No, instead, to guarantee yourself a spot in paradise forever, you've got to agree that a sickening and barbaric blood sacrifice was a necessary repayment for violations of a suite of arbitrary rules and that you're guilty too, just because some mythical people a zillion generations ago were duped by a trickster who had god's permission. |
No, you are guilty because you have done wrong. You have inherited a sin nature but even if you did not you have still willfully sinned. (lied, stolen, blasphemed, lusted etc.)
| Why do you think your faith is a better indicator of moral truth than my logic? |
My faith does not say anything about moral truth. The bible describes moral truth.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2013 : 09:01:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by ThorGoLucky
What sin? Are you talking about the man-made concept of original sin, where we're all inherently corrupted magically? Show me the credible evidence. |
You do have a sin nature but you have also broken every single one of the commandments. That is the sin I am talking about.
| How can you measure sin between people objectively? |
Why do you want to measure sin between people? God compares what you do to his law and determines if you are guilty of not.
| Sin = homeopathy: There's nothing to it. A man-made fabrication. Pathetic. |
Do you do wrong?
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2013 : 14:33:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Because those are works. Salvation is a gift, you cannot work for it. |
As I said: it runs counter to the obvious moral calculus.| No, you are guilty because you have done wrong. |
Do kids who die while being born get a pass into Heaven?| You have inherited a sin nature but even if you did not you have still willfully sinned. (lied, stolen, blasphemed, lusted etc.) |
And for three out of the four examples you just gave, an eternity in Hell is waaaaay overkill as a punishment.| My faith does not say anything about moral truth. The bible describes moral truth. |
Your faith is your basis for accepting the Bible as true. If it weren't for your faith, would you still accept the descriptions of moral truth in the Bible as useful? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2013 : 16:27:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Do you do wrong? |
Not every wrong is a sin.
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You know, if ANY wrong is a sin, and they are equally bad, my casual daydreams about Luka Sulic are as bad as massacring an entire nation.
Which is why I don't get why people think the Christian doctrine is a moral compass. It's not. Why not genocide an entire people? Ask for forgiveness, repent, and you're saved. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Questions For a Christian
