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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
 Posted - 07/23/2013 : 12:35:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
| How can a three-day trip be a compensation for something eternal? |
I would say because he is eternal. |
But that's what's weird. Compared to an infinite time-span, any finite time-span becomes insignificant. Three days dead is nothing compared to an eternity in heaven. How again was it a "sacrifice?"| But that is my opinion because I can't find anything in the Bible that clearly says why it is sufficient. |
I wonder why that is. Is what god says is "good" good merely because god says so? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2013 : 05:39:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
And how does calling on Jesus not equate to calling on God directly? |
Since you reject the doctrine of the trinity you will never accept my answer that it is calling on god directly, one person of the one god. |
What a cop out. The "Since you are an "unbeliever" you will not understand how the trinity in it's mutually exclusive violating way can be both 3 entities and one entity instead of one entity called out by it's individual aspects" is the magic decoder ring game that fundies play. You are refusing to recognize this basic logical inconsistancy.
| He is A God according to your line of argumentation. Jesus as a seperate "person" or entity indicates that God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit are three seperate "persons" or entities. Ergo different Gods. Ergo, Demigod Doorman for the Christian faith. |
Nope, they are all separate persons of the same one god. we will never agree on this because we have different beliefs on who god is. You do not believe the doctrine of the trinity, I do, so we will never come to an agreement on these questions. |
Again, cop out.
Us heathens with our fancy logic and high fallutin ideas on what a seperate entity is will be no match for your True Believer(tm) faith.
Bullshit. You choose not to address the inherent logical inconsistency and mutual exclusiveness of one entity vs three entities.
But yet Jesus himself was Jewish.
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What is the relevance? He is Jewish and said he is god and the only way to salvation is through him. Wasn’t he giving that message to Jews as well as gentiles?
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Nope. Only to Jews.
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Well not so fast. He came for the lost sheep of Isreal first but commanded his followers to make disciples of all nations. Jn 10:16 Jesus says he has sheep not of this fold that he will bring in. Paul clearly preaches to the gentiles through his writings that are inspired by god. Jesus came to save the world not just Jews.
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As Paul heavily edited the text after he got hold of the document. Paul reached out to gentiles, not Jesus. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 07:56:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
| How can a three-day trip be a compensation for something eternal? |
I would say because he is eternal. |
But that's what's weird. Compared to an infinite time-span, any finite time-span becomes insignificant. Three days dead is nothing compared to an eternity in heaven. How again was it a "sacrifice?" |
The bible does not say exactly why it was sufficient or a sacrifice. The bible does say that it was a sacrifice and was sufficient punishment for sins.
| But that is my opinion because I can't find anything in the Bible that clearly says why it is sufficient. |
I wonder why that is. Is what god says is "good" good merely because god says so?
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Yes. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 08:53:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
The bible does not say exactly why it was sufficient or a sacrifice. The bible does say that it was a sacrifice and was sufficient punishment for sins. |
Do you care about the how or why, or is "it just is" sufficient for you?| Is what god says is "good" good merely because god says so? |
Yes. |
So you're just following god's arbitrary rules, then. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 08:59:09 [Permalink]
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| “Rational arguments don’t usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people.” |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 11:30:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
What a cop out. The "Since you are an "unbeliever" you will not understand how the trinity in it's mutually exclusive violating way can be both 3 entities and one entity instead of one entity called out by it's individual aspects" is the magic decoder ring game that fundies play. You are refusing to recognize this basic logical inconsistancy. |
No. I acknowledge it may be inconsistant but the bible supports the doctrine of the trinity. You want me to explain something that no christian fully understands. I don't think it is logical to be able to understand everything about God if he really does exist eternally and created everything.
Again, cop out.
Us heathens with our fancy logic and high fallutin ideas on what a seperate entity is will be no match for your True Believer(tm) faith.
Bullshit. You choose not to address the inherent logical inconsistency and mutual exclusiveness of one entity vs three entities. |
See above.
But yet Jesus himself was Jewish.
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What is the relevance? He is Jewish and said he is god and the only way to salvation is through him. Wasn’t he giving that message to Jews as well as gentiles?
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As Paul heavily edited the text after he got hold of the document. Paul reached out to gentiles, not Jesus.
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Jesus told us to make disciples of all nations. That includes the gentiles. What text did Paul edit? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 12:34:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
What a cop out. The "Since you are an "unbeliever" you will not understand how the trinity in it's mutually exclusive violating way can be both 3 entities and one entity instead of one entity called out by it's individual aspects" is the magic decoder ring game that fundies play. You are refusing to recognize this basic logical inconsistancy. |
No. I acknowledge it may be inconsistant but the bible supports the doctrine of the trinity. You want me to explain something that no christian fully understands. I don't think it is logical to be able to understand everything about God if he really does exist eternally and created everything. |
Magic decoder ring fallacy. "No Christian fully understands it" ergo, it makes no sense, yet you believe it because someone told you so. No matter how logically and textually inconsistent it is with the Bible itself.
Again, cop out.
Us heathens with our fancy logic and high fallutin ideas on what a seperate entity is will be no match for your True Believer(tm) faith.
Bullshit. You choose not to address the inherent logical inconsistency and mutual exclusiveness of one entity vs three entities. |
See above.
But yet Jesus himself was Jewish.
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What is the relevance? He is Jewish and said he is god and the only way to salvation is through him. Wasn’t he giving that message to Jews as well as gentiles?
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As Paul heavily edited the text after he got hold of the document. Paul reached out to gentiles, not Jesus.
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Jesus told us to make disciples of all nations. That includes the gentiles. What text did Paul edit?
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About 33% of the Bible was completely new additions by Paul. He also edited large sections.
The passages I think you are referring to has to do with publishing the Word of God and a witness be present representing all nations. Nothing about gentiles. He does, however, call for conversion of the Jews to Christianity. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 14:21:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Magic decoder ring fallacy. "No Christian fully understands it" ergo, it makes no sense, yet you believe it because someone told you so. No matter how logically and textually inconsistent it is with the Bible itself. |
You have made the claim a couple of times that I believe in the trinity because someone told me so. You cannot possibly know that. I believe it because the bible supports the doctrine.
About 33% of the Bible was completely new additions by Paul. He also edited large sections. |
He was inspired by God to write the books he wrote. Which "large sections" did he edit?
The passages I think you are referring to has to do with publishing the Word of God and a witness be present representing all nations. Nothing about gentiles. He does, however, call for conversion of the Jews to Christianity.
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This is absolutely not supported by the text.
Mt 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 14:36:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
| How can a three-day trip be a compensation for something eternal? |
I would say because he is eternal. |
But that's what's weird. Compared to an infinite time-span, any finite time-span becomes insignificant. Three days dead is nothing compared to an eternity in heaven. How again was it a "sacrifice?" |
Same argument would apply to a 10 day or 1,000,000 day span, given that eternity is arbitrarily more than each.
I know Christians are enamored with the idea of the perfectly innocent person suffering such a bad fate, and of course being crucified is awful, but it's not as if many many people have not suffered as bad or worse fates, not perfectly innocent people, but many were not particularly bad. And if it's a Christian who believes in some hell of eternal torture and that it's just, I don't understand the intellectual gymnastics one must undertake to justify it morally while still accepting the power of the sacrifice.
| But that is my opinion because I can't find anything in the Bible that clearly says why it is sufficient. |
I wonder why that is. Is what god says is "good" good merely because god says so? |
Euthyphro dilemma!
| Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God? |
I think the typical theological argument makes God and the good tautological, it's an "if and only if." God has some nature (not of his choosing, it's supposed to be logically impossible to choose a nature), that nature is what is the standard of value, and the perfection of god yields actions by the god that match that nature perfectly. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2013 : 05:35:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Magic decoder ring fallacy. "No Christian fully understands it" ergo, it makes no sense, yet you believe it because someone told you so. No matter how logically and textually inconsistent it is with the Bible itself. |
You have made the claim a couple of times that I believe in the trinity because someone told me so. You cannot possibly know that. I believe it because the bible supports the doctrine. |
Logical conclusion.
Bible does not support contention.
Logic does not support contention.
This is not something brand new.
Ergo, someone told you it was true and you believed it.
And the Bible cannot support the contention as it violates the "no other God before me" commandment. Jesus and God must be aspects, not independant entities, of a single being.
About 33% of the Bible was completely new additions by Paul. He also edited large sections. |
He was inspired by God to write the books he wrote. Which "large sections" did he edit? |
Pretty much he edited most of what conflicted with itself. He missed parts. Then there was the Niacene Council of 365.
The passages I think you are referring to has to do with publishing the Word of God and a witness be present representing all nations. Nothing about gentiles. He does, however, call for conversion of the Jews to Christianity.
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This is absolutely not supported by the text.
Mt 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
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Must be a new "translation". KJV doesn't support this interpretation. In addition, this was reported by people claiming to see a ghost. He speaks of teaching, not conversion. The Jews were to be converted. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2013 : 06:32:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Magic decoder ring fallacy. "No Christian fully understands it" ergo, it makes no sense, yet you believe it because someone told you so. No matter how logically and textually inconsistent it is with the Bible itself. |
You have made the claim a couple of times that I believe in the trinity because someone told me so. You cannot possibly know that. I believe it because the bible supports the doctrine. |
Logical conclusion.
Bible does not support contention.
Logic does not support contention.
This is not something brand new.
Ergo, someone told you it was true and you believed it.
And the Bible cannot support the contention as it violates the "no other God before me" commandment. Jesus and God must be aspects, not independant entities, of a single being. |
I agree there is only one god. You may disagree with the doctrine of the trinity but you should at least understand it before you disagree with it. The doctrine of the trinity does not violate that command.
About 33% of the Bible was completely new additions by Paul. He also edited large sections. |
He was inspired by God to write the books he wrote. Which "large sections" did he edit? |
Pretty much he edited most of what conflicted with itself. He missed parts. Then there was the Niacene Council of 365. |
So which sections did he edit?
The passages I think you are referring to has to do with publishing the Word of God and a witness be present representing all nations. Nothing about gentiles. He does, however, call for conversion of the Jews to Christianity.
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This is absolutely not supported by the text.
Mt 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
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Must be a new "translation". KJV doesn't support this interpretation. In addition, this was reported by people claiming to see a ghost. He speaks of teaching, not conversion. The Jews were to be converted.
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The greek word translated teach in the KJV should have been translated disciple. Almost all other translations say disciple and Strongs defines the word as disciple.
The KJV Mark 16:14-20 says:
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2013 : 11:43:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Magic decoder ring fallacy. "No Christian fully understands it" ergo, it makes no sense, yet you believe it because someone told you so. No matter how logically and textually inconsistent it is with the Bible itself. |
You have made the claim a couple of times that I believe in the trinity because someone told me so. You cannot possibly know that. I believe it because the bible supports the doctrine. |
Logical conclusion.
Bible does not support contention.
Logic does not support contention.
This is not something brand new.
Ergo, someone told you it was true and you believed it.
And the Bible cannot support the contention as it violates the "no other God before me" commandment. Jesus and God must be aspects, not independant entities, of a single being. |
I agree there is only one god. You may disagree with the doctrine of the trinity but you should at least understand it before you disagree with it. The doctrine of the trinity does not violate that command. |
They way you have depicted it here, it does. The way I depicted it as aspects of the whole and not seperate entities, does not.
About 33% of the Bible was completely new additions by Paul. He also edited large sections. |
He was inspired by God to write the books he wrote. Which "large sections" did he edit? |
Pretty much he edited most of what conflicted with itself. He missed parts. Then there was the Niacene Council of 365. |
So which sections did he edit? |
Multiple. Including authoring up to 14 books of the New Testament including Romans, Corinthians (I and II). Nicean Council of 325 further edited and homogenized the stories. It leaves the document suspect.
The passages I think you are referring to has to do with publishing the Word of God and a witness be present representing all nations. Nothing about gentiles. He does, however, call for conversion of the Jews to Christianity.
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This is absolutely not supported by the text.
Mt 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
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Must be a new "translation". KJV doesn't support this interpretation. In addition, this was reported by people claiming to see a ghost. He speaks of teaching, not conversion. The Jews were to be converted.
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The greek word translated teach in the KJV should have been translated disciple. Almost all other translations say disciple and Strongs defines the word as disciple.
The KJV Mark 16:14-20 says:
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
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I see.... When are you going to start preaching to dogs, cats, and cattle? Again, after death, alledged statements by a ghost. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 07:34:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I see.... When are you going to start preaching to dogs, cats, and cattle? Again, after death, alledged statements by a ghost.
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In Mark 16:15 almost all other translations other than the KJV translate it as creation and not creature. It is clear form the context that Jesus is talking about people since in the very next sentence it says:
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
As well as the entire rest of the bible that teaches that only people sin and need to be saved.
And to the ghost comment, the bible never indicates that Jesus appeared to anyone after his death as a ghost. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 08:01:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
The bible does not say exactly why it was sufficient or a sacrifice. The bible does say that it was a sacrifice and was sufficient punishment for sins. |
Do you care about the how or why, or is "it just is" sufficient for you? |
Sure, but it seems illogical to me that we can understand everything god does. The bible tells us how to be free from sin and Gods wrath. It is not a self help book, instruction manual on life or an exhaustive technical presentation of how god works everything. If we had to know how everything worked in our lives we would be very unproductive.
I assume you believe that life appeared on this planet through natural means; however, you have no proof but that is what you think happened. If this is not the case let me know.
So you're just following god's arbitrary rules, then.
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No. I found this definition of arbitrary:
Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle.
I do not think gods laws are whimsical or created by impulsiveness. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2013 : 10:07:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I see.... When are you going to start preaching to dogs, cats, and cattle? Again, after death, alledged statements by a ghost.
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In Mark 16:15 almost all other translations other than the KJV translate it as creation and not creature. It is clear form the context that Jesus is talking about people since in the very next sentence it says:
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
As well as the entire rest of the bible that teaches that only people sin and need to be saved. |
Makes sense.| And to the ghost comment, the bible never indicates that Jesus appeared to anyone after his death as a ghost. |
How do you explain that people didn't see, notice, or recognize him? Or that he seemed to show up in several places at once then vanish without a trace? Or that he wouldn't let Mary Magdalene touch him? |
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Questions For a Christian
