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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
 Posted - 06/28/2013 : 11:21:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Do you think this may lead to laws forcing religious groups to marry same sex couples? |
Can you point to any law forcing a church or religious group to perform marriages for interracial couples?
No.
What happened with Loving v. Virginia 46 years ago is being repeated today with same-sex marriage. Every single little worry about the consequences of same-sex marriage we hear today (like yours) were heard in 1967, and not one of them came true. Straight people aren't going to quit getting married, and churches aren't going to be forced to marry anyone they don't want to.
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I was asking a question. I am not saying it will happen. But I guarantee at some point a church pastor will be sued because they refuse to marry a same sex couple. Then we will see what the courts say.
We have laws prohibiting smoking in private businesses, forcing us to buy health insurance, proposed laws regulating soda size etc. These clearly restrict freedom unnecessarily, so I don't think it is a 0% chance. But this is for a different thread. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 11:32:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Who would want to get married by any religious or not "nut" who considers them immoral. If gays want to get married in a church wouldn't you think they'd do so in a church that accepts them as human beings and would be happy to marry them. There were churches that rang their bells for approval when the announcement came. It's not like 100% of all churches are in agreement that gays should not get married you know. I'm most confident there will be no shortage of churches that will be happy to marry gays. I expect there will be a boom of business for wedding business'. |
The same reason colleges were sued to let women into male only colleges where they were not wanted. Like VMI.
| Bells also rang at other Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, Unitarian and other Christian churches. |
Why shouldn't gays have the right to be miserably like other married people? |
What a terrible opinion of marriage.
I would not call a church christian that married same sex couples in clear violation of the scriptures. It is not like the bible or Jesus is ambiguous on the issue.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 12:04:09 [Permalink]
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| Actually it's pretty much a don't ask don't tell story, lots of "up yours Sodomites" and 50 references to men being really, really friendly. (Including Jesus) |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 12:24:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
But I guarantee at some point a church pastor will be sued because they refuse to marry a same sex couple. |
Has any pastor ever been sued for refusing to marry an interracial couple?| Then we will see what the courts say. |
The courts will correctly say that religious groups and churches are immune from anti-discrimination laws in terms of to whom they provide service (a Catholic priest can legally refuse to marry a Muslim couple, for example), therefore lawsuit dismissed. Of course, it won't get that far, because any competent lawyer hired by the same-sex couple in question will advise them that the lawsuit will be dismissed as soon as a judge sees it, so it'd be a waste of their time and money to even file it.
(That's "correctly" from a legal standpoint, not necessarily a moral one.)| We have laws prohibiting smoking in private businesses, forcing us to buy health insurance, proposed laws regulating soda size etc. These clearly restrict freedom unnecessarily, so I don't think it is a 0% chance. But this is for a different thread. |
We already have a vast wealth of data on what happens when laws with nothing more than a religious basis are overturned, because that's what the anti-miscegenation laws were. So we can look to history to see what the consequences of legal same-sex marriage will be on religious figures who disagree with it: none at all. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 13:07:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
The courts will correctly say that religious groups and churches are immune from anti-discrimination laws in terms of to whom they provide service (a Catholic priest can legally refuse to marry a Muslim couple, for example), therefore lawsuit dismissed. Of course, it won't get that far, because any competent lawyer hired by the same-sex couple in question will advise them that the lawsuit will be dismissed as soon as a judge sees it, so it'd be a waste of their time and money to even file it. |
I did find this
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 14:07:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I did find this |
Not a good example. Ocean Grove campground rented that facility to the general public, not just Methodists, not just Christians, and so had to follow the same anti-discrimination laws as any other business renting facilities to the general public.
I also note that the campground association is not a "church pastor." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 07:24:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
The same reason colleges were sued to let women into male only colleges where they were not wanted. Like VMI.
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That was was not a religious discrimination suit. That was filed under sexual discrimination grounds. While both are constitutionally guaranteed rights they are two separate rights, thus are treated differently.| What a terrible opinion of marriage. |
I DO agree with you from the way you apparently took it. It was a joke! My apologies for not being more clear. I suppose I should have used a smiley like  or  . It has been proven time and time again posts on forums can be taken as not intended are when compared to other forms of communication. Sorry about that. As a joke about "marriage" it's not a new one and was not conceived by me.
I would not call a church christian that married same sex couples in clear violation of the scriptures. It is not like the bible or Jesus is ambiguous on the issue.
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Well! See, here we go. I disagree with that. I suppose you or others would say that the Bible was "ambiguous " about murder of children and not "ambiguous" about Gay marriage. Imagine that. That does not mean we should let that (or other differences) drive a wedge between us. I backed up my post with a link to an article reporting that there are different denominational churches that agreed with me. What do you say to those other churches and other Christians that use the Bible just as you do, who apparently disagree with you also? They're just wrong and your just right? |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 07:55:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Originally posted by Convinced
The same reason colleges were sued to let women into male only colleges where they were not wanted. Like VMI. |
That was was not a religious discrimination suit. That was filed under sexual discrimination grounds. |
Not only that, but graduation from a military academy can give a military career a significant boost, whereas which church a couple gets married in isn't going to have any noticeable effect on the quality of the marriage, so the two things aren't remotely analogous.
Furthermore, VMI is a public college, and so discrimination there is effectively discrimination by the government, which should be unacceptable to everyone. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 09:10:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Originally posted by Convinced
The same reason colleges were sued to let women into male only colleges where they were not wanted. Like VMI.
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That was was not a religious discrimination suit. That was filed under sexual discrimination grounds. While both are constitutionally guaranteed rights they are two separate rights, thus are treated differently. |
I suppose I should clarify this in case it's not clear to others what the differences are. Except your religion of course Convinced, all other Religion are all about delusions and fantasy. Religions like the one that worships the Monkey God "Hanuman" is clearly delusional and it got it's followers. The Church of Scientology is another delusional religion.Link on Scientology.
According to this story, 75 million years ago Xenu brought billions of people to Earth in spacecraft resembling Douglas DC-8 airliners, stacked them around volcanoes and detonated hydrogen bombs in the volcanoes. The thetans then clustered together, stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to do this today. |
Can you believe people by into that shit? Yet people do all over the planet. Then there are the wacky beliefs of the Mormons. Basically every religion when viewed without their particular set of blinders and set of special pleadings can clearly be seen as unfounded or not based in reality. I see all Religions as delusionally founded but that just me. A lot of theist agree with me, except for the one religion they believe in. This is for everyone to decide on their own or with the help of an impartial religious pastor. I would think that as being is misguided, as they have a conflict of interest but quite a few do that anyway.
But I digress, Your religion Convinced, the only true religion along with all they other wacky Religions all receive equal special standing. It's not up to the government to decide or pick a favorite. Religions' revenues and properties are tax exempt, for starters and there are other special privileges. Businesses on the other hand have none of the special privileges that religions have. That is why businesses are not permitted to claim the right to discriminate against protected groups like Religions can AND do. That is why any lawyer worth their salt will advise any gay couple wishing to sue a legally established church that they are wasting their time and money. Any Judge will throw the case out of court but not one directed at a business or company. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 20:27:43 [Permalink]
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Convinced, find any judge or lawyer if you don't believe those who have posted here. Or just research the nuances of law yourself if you have the time. Religious clergy and private religious communities get all kinds of special protections and special rights, just like private citizens get special rights regarding activities which take place in their private homes. The idea that religious clergy would be compelled to officiate gay weddings is absurd. Hell, ask any Catholic priest if they are worried about such a thing happening.
The example you gave from Ocean Grove doesn't apply for the reasons already stated by others here. You can't rent a facility out to the public and then exclude protected groups of people, any more than a landlord can post a vacancy and add "No Christians". If Christians don't want their church used for things like gay weddings, then they shouldn't rent the building out to the public. End of story.
It's called living in a pluralistic society. Now of course this doesn't stop the Christian majority from trying to pass laws that allow them to break anti-discrimination laws. For instance, a few years ago in Kentucky some asshole Baptist church that owned a camp group got all uppity because Camp Quest, a camp for atheist and agnostic kids rented their facility. The Baptists went and got a law written and passed (KY House Bill 70, passed in 2000) that specifically targeted "atheists and satanists" for discrimination. I'm am so sick and tired of Christians that want to have their cake and eat it too. A bigot can refuse to let black people, or gay people, or Jewish people, or Christian people for that matter, into his or her home. That is his or her right in their private home. But as soon as that person offers to rent a room, he or she must abide by anti-discrimination laws. But for some damn reason so many people don't seem to realize that there is that line between private and public, and in some places like Kentucky the Christian majority manages to find ways around the laws.
Just today I was listening to the radio about how now there are cases of florists and other companies that sell services or products for weddings refusing to provide their services for gay couples. That sort of crap is WHY we have to have anti-discrimination laws to protect certain groups in the first place! Happily the tide is shifting. By the time my girls are adults they'll be able to marry a man or woman in probably any state in the union (or at least get married in one state and have it recognized in all the others) and they'll have gay friends and colleagues who are married and have children (actually they already do now, as do I,) and whenever they hear somebody make an anti-gay comment or complain about having to serve gay customers or clients, they'll wince in embarrassment for the person, just as most young people today wince when some elderly people make casual racist remarks. And they'll never really understand why it took so long for gay people to get the right to marry in the first place. These thoughts gives me much joy and relief. Hopefully my daughters won't know anyone who committed suicide, or who was beat up for being gay or having gay parents, or who could only live in certain select neighborhoods and cities where their family could be open and accepted. I wish I didn't know so many.
If religious or other groups find themselves in a position where their deeply held views are at odds with mainstream society, they will eventually be forced to make some hard choices. Anyone who wants to participate in the larger society has to accept certain values of the larger society. There are PLENTY of mainstream values that I abhor, but I also realize that if I draw a firm line with every little thing I disagree with, I will turn myself and my family into outcasts. And some people do choose to be outcasts or isolationists - look at the Amish or people who live on communes. What we are hearing now from the Religious Right is whining about how their traditional values have fallen out of sync with mainstream values.
But hey, that won't stop bigots from kicking and screaming along the way, and trying to pass new laws so they can have more special privileges to discriminate against protected minorities, just as they did in Kentucky in 2000. Just Google "Kentucky's Religious Freedom Bill". Religious freedom my ass. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 00:35:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
You can't rent a facility out to the public and then exclude protected groups of people, any more than a landlord can post a vacancy and add "No Christians". |
There are smarter ways to accomplish that: Decorate the lobby of your business descreetly with Christinan Satanic theme, "this property protected by satan" and a few pentagrams, and the worst of the fundies will stay away. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 09:26:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by marfknox
You can't rent a facility out to the public and then exclude protected groups of people, any more than a landlord can post a vacancy and add "No Christians". |
There are smarter ways to accomplish that: Decorate the lobby of your business descreetly with Christinan Satanic theme, "this property protected by satan" and a few pentagrams, and the worst of the fundies will stay away.
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Make it Cthulhu-themed and only cool people will show. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 20:12:24 [Permalink]
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Dr Mabuse and Siberia, you make a good point. Most discrimination is through totally legal, social channels. There are all kinds of social signals we can send out to let people know whether we agree with them or not, and whether we accept them fully as a person or not. All the more reason why I don't think it is too much to ask that in our laws we protect certain groups who have a history of being disenfranchised from the most institutionalized and formal kinds of discrimination.
I also thought of another great example that illustrates why clergy won't ever be forced to officiate gay weddings: many denominations engage in sexual discrimination in their employment practices. For instance, Catholic priests can only be men. Being a Catholic priest is absolutely a type of employment. They makes their livelihood off their positions, in many case a very lucrative living. And women are prohibited from holding those positions. (The priests female counterparts, nuns, are actually required to take an oath of poverty. Something priests only have as an option, and rarely take it.) But no women ever sue the Catholic Church because because it won't let them become priests. I mean, they could try, but in America they would lose that battle pretty quick because of religious protections. I don't have a problem with those kinds of protections. If anything, allowing private religious sects to commit such types of discrimination in their practices in contrasts to the general society serves the purpose of showing how antiquated and unfair they are. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2013 : 10:44:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Well! See, here we go. I disagree with that. I suppose you or others would say that the Bible was "ambiguous " about murder of children and not "ambiguous" about Gay marriage. Imagine that. That does not mean we should let that (or other differences) drive a wedge between us. I backed up my post with a link to an article reporting that there are different denominational churches that agreed with me. What do you say to those other churches and other Christians that use the Bible just as you do, who apparently disagree with you also? They're just wrong and your just right?
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Sure, there are many churches that affirm gay marriage. However words have meaning. We can have different interpretations of bible verses but that does not change the fact that there is one meaning to the text. Do you think the Bible is unclear on Gods stance on homosexuality?
I will say that you can be a christian and marry gay couples. The gospel message is repent and believe period, no other requirements. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2013 : 10:47:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by sailingsoul
Originally posted by Convinced
The same reason colleges were sued to let women into male only colleges where they were not wanted. Like VMI. |
That was was not a religious discrimination suit. That was filed under sexual discrimination grounds. |
Not only that, but graduation from a military academy can give a military career a significant boost, whereas which church a couple gets married in isn't going to have any noticeable effect on the quality of the marriage, so the two things aren't remotely analogous.
Furthermore, VMI is a public college, and so discrimination there is effectively discrimination by the government, which should be unacceptable to everyone.
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Ok, I am not going to argue you are wrong. I am not saying that the government will force this. This was just a question wanting your thoughts. I hope all of you are right. I do think that there is a 100% chance a lawsuit will be filed at some point. Then we will see how it plays out. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Victories for equality
