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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 10/22/2013 : 07:07:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
If you know when it is not a child then when is it a child?
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When it stopped being a toddler?
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What?
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Pretty simple here.
When a child stops being a toddler, it becomes an adolecent. After that, an adult.
At each stage, the being in question gains more rights and responsibilities. A child has few rights. An adolecent has more and finally an adult has all the rights and responsibilities that you or I have.
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So how does the amount of responsibilities a person has fit into abortion? Are you saying one becomes a person when they gain a certain amount of responsibility?
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I'm saying that when the organism becomes more than a collection of cells or parasitic organism, it starts gaining rights. And that the rights of the fully formed adult also has rights. Superior rights as the host creature. Your assignment of a soul this early in this process to an unborn child is unBiblical. It exists only as a way to delegate the rights of the female adult subservient to those of a zygote, blastopore, or fetus.
Legally, the fetus has few rights. If it had any significant rights, it would be the basis for tax breaks. By assigning it rights that it does not legally have, it serves only as special emotional pleading that somehow you know the mechanics of God (atheists, your mileage may vary) and when a soul (which is a religious concept) attaches to a fetus. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2013 : 07:26:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
If you know when it is not a child then when is it a child?
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When it stopped being a toddler?
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What?
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I was trying to point out that you have a pretty weird idea about what the word "child" means. Trying to frame an argument using your own made up definition is not really honest.
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But this is the point. We disagree on what a child is and therefore disagree on when we can terminate a pregnancy. I have been honest about my belief that a person begins at conception. How late in pregnancy do you believe an abortion should legally be performed? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2013 : 07:46:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
No moral position should be taken at all in the sex ed material (and none typically is -- if it was, I may well agree). It's just knowledge, which is why I cannot fathom why parents oppose it. It shows how the reproductive system works, how to use contraception, what STDs are, statistics on the effectiveness of different contraceptives, etc. How does knowing this cause anyone any harm? |
I am for sex education without moral positions as well. I would like add instruction to discuss the emotional aspects of sex as well and consequences good and bad of sex. Teaching about sexual reproduction is different than teaching about relationships.
Our church has a youth group that has kids form 6th to 12th grade. every year they all get together and talk about sex and relationships. The older girls and boys talk about their experience with sex and if they have regrets or not. These types of real discussions with the parents involved with the children can lead to lower std and unwanted pregnancy rates and healthier relationships for them in the future. Just talking about reproduction doesn't do this in my opinion.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2013 : 08:11:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
The other answers so far should have indicated to you just how ridiculous that question is. I refuse to pretend that your being or should be taken serious with that. If your going to lampoon with that question then let's go. |
Why is having a different definition of a person/child lampooning anything? I simply wanted to know when they thought a child becomes a child.
| OK Doc, nothing weird at all that I can see. 150+ Million American's theists do the same thing. So that makes it common place, not weird. It may be intellectually dishonest but not weird and only if one is using their intellect. Which raises the question is intellect required to be intellectually dishonest? I digress. It's not like they're all being a liars now. He's just playing the semantics game, pretending to or acting like he doesn't know the meaning of "child". It's what he does, it's what all Christians do. It's being like Jesus and what could possibly be wrong with emulating Jesus? |
The abortion discussion really is about the definition of a child. I am not playing any game or being deceptive. I believe a person starts at conception. When do you think a person starts?
You know? When Jesus clearly stated in Matthew 24-34 (NKJV), "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." Jesus was just playing the semantics game, pretending to not know or was acting like he didn't know the meaning of all these words or word groups he spoke. The words like, "assuredly", "this generation", "will by no means", "pass away", "all", "take place". I was talking to some Jehovah Witnesses last month and they told me what my problem is with understanding all this stuff. (I)We Atheists, we're to stupid and hate God so much we can't possibly understand it. We're blinded by hate and ignorance, our confusion is unavoidable. Not being in the know, we misinterpret Matthew 24-34 to mean this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. That's where we get it wrong, it doesn't mean that at all. Jesus was using semantics just like his emulators today. What he said wasn't what he said to mean. See?
They (JW's) explained the people living back then who heard Jesus, thought it meant what atheist today thinks it means but they were as wrong as atheists are today. When that last one died waiting for Jesus, then it became clear to all those still alive it didn't mean that. Then again, when all those alive, who weren't alive to hear Jesus all died, what it meant became clear to those still alive then and so on and so on for about 2013 years. Until today about 30 some odd generations later where it now means not all of us will die before, at least one of us, will see Jesus' return. How cool is that? To be alive these last days and seeing Jesus return!!! Hallelujah to the lucky one's!!!
Is it all clear now Dr. Mabuse? He's coming real soon, Jesus said so himself and if you can't believe Jesus than who can you believe? If you can't take as Gospel as "The Gospel" we might as well all go out and start robbing banks, robbing stores, Killing babies and children, go off raping and killing whoever we want. It all make sense and is perfectly logical, if you have your eyes and heart open to the truth and reality Holy Spirit. |
Wow.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2013 : 09:06:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
So how does the amount of responsibilities a person has fit into abortion? |
Your right, IT DOESN"T!!! it doesn't come into play at all. You insist it does just by assuming a fertilized egg is a child. It's based on nothing. It's not even supported in the Bible. Your made up God doesn't consider a fetus equal to the woman carrying one. Your God actually says a woman is the property of her father or husband. WTF? That's made you by people who want their society to think and live that way. It's freaking sick and immoral. I'm assuming you know better now than those who did in the past, so you reject that today. That particular insight into what is moral didn't come from the stinking Bible. It came from what you see as immoral nonbelievers who reject the immorality of your God. Yet I assume you agree treating women as inferior is immoral. Going through life picking and choosing what parts of the Bible you should accept and reject is what your doing. Stop it. It causes harm to others when you choose wrong.
Where did the notion that a zygote is a child? The Republican party decreed a fertilized egg a child to create a wedge issue and it has been use to gain political power very effectively for them. Not based on science not based in the Bible, They pulled it out of the same place Apollo came from. You basing your beliefs w/o any evidence or any data just like you believe your God is real, w/o any evidence. That is the slippery slope you are forced to live on by not demanding evidence before you accept any beliefs AS TRUE. It's nothing more than "making it up". You insist a God exist because some people long ago made up your God Yahweh to explain the unknown, the cause of plagues, the cause of rain, etc.. Everything comes from "God", don't worry be happy. That's living in fantasy land.
What your doing is no different that the people elsewhere did when they made up Thor to explain the cause of thunder. How others believed and worshiped Zeus to explain the cause of earth quakes under the Mediterranean sea. along with others elsewhere who invented other Deities that can be magically be called upon help them with matters of life. Gods of love , war, good crops, good fortune, what have you. The list is endless. Human beings around the planet and thru history have made up all sorts of Deities that you would never see as true but you hold this single exception that must never be looked at critically. Why? because it can't survive being examined closely. So YOU refuse to do so, who nice. Just as the other Deities fail to survive such scrutiny by you.
Are you saying one becomes a person when they gain a certain amount of responsibility?
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Humans have blood pumping hearts , brains, all sorts of parts. A zygote ( first day thru third day) has no heart , no brain, no nervous system, it's not by any legal definition a "child". Our position is abortions are NOT involving a child or a human. It has the potential to become but only by decry can it be considered more than it is. We're saying a fertilized egg is not a person it's a zygote (if you haven't bothered to do the simplest research through all this), it's not a child , it's not a fetus. Any woman has the parts to make her a prostitute, that doesn't make her one. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2013 : 09:16:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I am for sex education without moral positions as well. I would like add instruction to discuss the emotional aspects of sex as well and consequences good and bad of sex. Teaching about sexual reproduction is different than teaching about relationships.
Our church has a youth group that has kids form 6th to 12th grade. every year they all get together and talk about sex and relationships. The older girls and boys talk about their experience with sex and if they have regrets or not. These types of real discussions with the parents involved with the children can lead to lower std and unwanted pregnancy rates and healthier relationships for them in the future. Just talking about reproduction doesn't do this in my opinion.
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Excellent points, I agree with all that and that it's very important. Anybody would benefit from that kind of education. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2013 : 15:46:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I was trying to point out that you have a pretty weird idea about what the word "child" means. Trying to frame an argument using your own made up definition is not really honest.
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But this is the point. We disagree on what a child is and therefore disagree on when we can terminate a pregnancy. I have been honest about my belief that a person begins at conception. How late in pregnancy do you believe an abortion should legally be performed?
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My mind will be subject to revision if I'm presented with a solid argument for another timeframe, but for now, I will go with "When the foetus is viable outside the vomb". Looking at it closer, there's not a 100.00% survival rate even if carried to terms, so an abritrary limit less than 100% has to be agreed upon. A survival rate of 50% is an arbitrary number giving a fifty-fifty survival rate and puts the time limit somwhere around 7 months. With a marigin for error, free abortion should be available until the end of the second trimester. After that, a medical review board should have to weigh in ethical concerns if it should be granted. Medical concerns for the mother, or medical problems with the foetus like verious levels of deformity or genetic disorders.
| I have been honest about my belief that a person begins at conception. |
More than half of all conceptions ends in spontaneous termination.
Miscarriages. Wouldn't that make God a murdurer? Or do we put blame on the woman for miscarrying?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2013 : 09:00:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Your right, IT DOESN"T!!! it doesn't come into play at all. You insist it does just by assuming a fertilized egg is a child. It's based on nothing. It's not even supported in the Bible. |
I disagree with this. The Bible teaches that the unborn are persons. The Bible ascribes personal attributes to the unborn (Ps 51:5, Luke 1:44, Jer 1:5) Jesus is called a child at conception (Mt 1:20-21). The unborn are also known personally by God before they were born (Ps 139:15-16, Jer 1:5) for example.
| Your made up God doesn't consider a fetus equal to the woman carrying one. Your God actually says a woman is the property of her father or husband. WTF? That's made you by people who want their society to think and live that way. It's freaking sick and immoral. I'm assuming you know better now than those who did in the past, so you reject that today. That particular insight into what is moral didn't come from the stinking Bible. It came from what you see as immoral nonbelievers who reject the immorality of your God. Yet I assume you agree treating women as inferior is immoral. Going through life picking and choosing what parts of the Bible you should accept and reject is what your doing. Stop it. It causes harm to others when you choose wrong. |
Even if this is what I am doing, tell me why living my life this way is wrong that is not just your opinion. Tell me why hurting others is wrong and why it should apply to me.
And btw, I did not kill, rape or molest children etc. before I became a Christian in case you were going to say I am a monster for needing a God to stop me from doing these things.
| Where did the notion that a zygote is a child? The Republican party decreed a fertilized egg a child to create a wedge issue and it has been use to gain political power very effectively for them. |
Yeah, non of those evil republicans really believe it, they just uses it for political power.
| Any woman has the parts to make her a prostitute, that doesn't make her one. |
Yes, but if a woman lives long enough it does not mean she will become a prostitute. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2013 : 09:30:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
My mind will be subject to revision if I'm presented with a solid argument for another timeframe, but for now, I will go with "When the foetus is viable outside the vomb". Looking at it closer, there's not a 100.00% survival rate even if carried to terms, so an abritrary limit less than 100% has to be agreed upon. A survival rate of 50% is an arbitrary number giving a fifty-fifty survival rate and puts the time limit somwhere around 7 months. With a marigin for error, free abortion should be available until the end of the second trimester. After that, a medical review board should have to weigh in ethical concerns if it should be granted. Medical concerns for the mother, or medical problems with the foetus like verious levels of deformity or genetic disorders. |
This reasoning amazes me because you cannot define when someone becomes a person so instead of erring on the side of not killing a person you push the limits and kill people by your definition. Why not err on thie side of not killing a person?
| More than half of all conceptions ends in spontaneous termination. Miscarriages. Wouldn't that make God a murdurer? Or do we put blame on the woman for miscarrying? |
Ultimately everything that happens God either makes happen or allows for his purposes. We do know that the fall was not just people becoming sinful but all of creation became corrupted which is why there is disease, miscarriages etc. Jesus will come back and make everything new and restore everything to the way it was before the fall including everyone, that gift is even extended to abortionists. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2013 : 09:45:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
This is fine with me. I dont care either way. I no longer look to the government for answers. It has none. |
Think about that the next time you're riding over a smooth, freshly repaved road.| The government has been working to reduce poverty for what 60 years? The poverty rate today is about what it was in the 1960s. |
Just because some problems are difficult, we should just all give up?| More government mandates. Shouldnt people be free to be uninformed? |
With every right come responsibilities. The right to vote comes with the responsibility to go through a rational process to decide whom to vote for. If people aren't going to do so voluntarily, I'd force it on them, yes.| Yet you advocate required health insurance and required civics classes. |
No rights are absolute, and all come with responsibilities. The right to self-determination, for example, doesn't include a right to commit arson.| No. But I would not work against any laws if they were being debated. I would take the consequences of breaking these laws you have suggested. |
So there's no freedom that you would voluntarily forfeit to reach your goal, yet your goal is to force women to become breeders against their will? That hardly seems fair.| I am for sex education that will reduce unwanted pregnancy. I am reluctant to have the government teach my child anything they want without my knowledge or approval. However, I will think about this point. |
You are free to attend school board meetings, to lobby board members, and to vote for or against the same. The government doesn't teach your children anything without your knowledge or consent. (So long as you don't have any whacky ideas like properly passed and enacted laws being "forced" on you.)| When you nationalize and secularize any system it is bound to fail. |
Better tell the military.| Abolition is impossible, but if it weren't, it would be cruel. You should be seeking a rational minimization of the practice instead of a zero-tolerance nightmare. |
So you want me to just want less children killed. |
I'm saying that because abolition or abortion is impossible, you should select a reasonable goal.| If there is one abortion performed it is morally wrong. |
Our government shouldn't be in the business of enforcing morality.| Just because god does something, does not mean that we have the right to do the same. |
Way to miss the point. If god didn't want a particular embryo aborted, do you think he has the power to stop it? If not, then he's not much of a god. If so, then the logical conclusion is that god condones abortion.
Also:| I believe a person starts at conception. |
So because dogs also conceive, do their zygotes start out as people, too, and become dogs sometime during the pregnancy?
Some 30% of all human zygotes fail to implant and so are spontaneously aborted without the woman even knowing she was pregnant. Why does god do all that murdering? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2013 : 11:10:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Hey, Convinced: do you oppose the death penalty?
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Yes. The Bible seems unclear to me on this issue. I think it does lean toward giving governments the authority to execute people for justice to prevail but not a command to do so. And arguments can be given on both sides.
I oppose the death penalty because it gives people more time to consider the Gospel message, it does not make economic sense, it is cruel, it does not deter crime, I think it is a scary thing for a government to have that kind of authority over its citizenry, people on death row have been exonerated and I could not push the button that led to a person being killed or give a verdict of death on a jury.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2013 : 11:42:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
The government has been working to reduce poverty for what 60 years? The poverty rate today is about what it was in the 1960s.
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You are right. We should also get rid of firemen because we still have fires. Police as well because crime continues unabated.
Lets get rid of doctors while we are at it because people still get sick and die with alarming regularity. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2013 : 12:02:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Fripp
Originally posted by Convinced
The government has been working to reduce poverty for what 60 years? The poverty rate today is about what it was in the 1960s.
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You are right. We should also get rid of firemen because we still have fires. Police as well because crime continues unabated.
Lets get rid of doctors while we are at it because people still get sick and die with alarming regularity.
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This is not what I am saying. I am saying government will not reduce poverty it seems. There are other ways to reduce poverty other than through government programs if enough people cared. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2013 : 12:21:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
This is fine with me. I dont care either way. I no longer look to the government for answers. It has none. |
Think about that the next time you're riding over a smooth, freshly repaved road. |
I was more talking about social issues. The government has good answers for roads, fire, police, military etc.
| Just because some problems are difficult, we should just all give up? |
Not give up but maybe change our way of doing things. I believe poverty can be solved, just not by governments.
| With every right come responsibilities. The right to vote comes with the responsibility to go through a rational process to decide whom to vote for. If people aren't going to do so voluntarily, I'd force it on them, yes. |
Where is this written in our constitution or laws that this is how you must come to a conclusion on voting. You get one vote and can use it any way you want. You are not required to have a reason to vote for someone. This seems discriminatory to me. You also have the right to not vote and still complain.
| So there's no freedom that you would voluntarily forfeit to reach your goal, yet your goal is to force women to become breeders against their will? That hardly seems fair. |
I said I would give them up but not abide by the ones you asked about and take the consequences for breaking the law.
| You are free to attend school board meetings, to lobby board members, and to vote for or against the same. The government doesn't teach your children anything without your knowledge or consent. (So long as you don't have any whacky ideas like properly passed and enacted laws being "forced" on you.) |
Yes, but when I disagree about what is being taught I should have the right remove my child from the class. Also, I dont have to agree with any law thats lawfully passed or try not to change it.
| So because dogs also conceive, do their zygotes start out as people, too, and become dogs sometime during the pregnancy? |
Dogs are not people.
| Some 30% of all human zygotes fail to implant and so are spontaneously aborted without the woman even knowing she was pregnant. Why does god do all that murdering? |
I answered this in response to sailingsoul
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Hypothetical Question
