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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1486 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2013 : 18:46:23 [Permalink]
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| I agree that it's edited. But I'm not so sure it's dubbed. Why are you? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2013 : 18:59:43 [Permalink]
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[Note: this was from Dave!]
A few commenters over here report making similar sounds with ice themselves. |
You learn something new every g****mn day! |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1486 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2013 : 11:00:32 [Permalink]
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| Like one of the commerters says, ice doesn't sound like a skin drum. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2013 : 05:58:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by ThorGoLucky
Like one of the commerters says, ice doesn't sound like a skin drum. |
Yeah, but that ice doesn't sound like any skin drum I've ever heard. Can you find a skin drum that sounds like the Baikal ice? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2013 : 19:56:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I agree that it's edited. But I'm not so sure it's dubbed. Why are you?
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I agree with Thor, I too suspect artful manipulation. Looks totally pieced together to me, sound and video. Which brings into question what it's portraying and being presented as. Seems you can agree it's edited. I believe the sounds are "bubbed" too, like Thor does.
| In sound recording, dubbing is the transfer or copying of previously recorded audio material from one medium to another of the same or a different type. |
As I read it, it's dubbed if the sound was recorded when it was created and rerecorded during the editing or splicing job. I say they are "mixed" too. Parts are either added on top or spliced in sequence. That being my belief, I'm not willing to take their claim that the ice sounds that way naturally at their word, with this one video alone. Remember! it's their stated claim that these sounds are from a specific lake and a specific area to that lake and does not occur else where on the same lake (or presumably any where else in the world being so specific).
| "In fact, for some reason, the ice in other parts of the lake does not produce the same stunning results." |
The video starts out with four players, which I'll call Manny, Moe, Jack and Alice from left to right. Manny on the left, has a knit hat, with colored bands separated with thinner white ones. @1:52 Manny suddenly is second from the left not first(Ooops!). An obvious quick position change while magically not missing a beat. @2:00 he's standing with his arms raised throwing a sheet of ice for the added sound effects that it produced as it shatters on the frozen lake. Seemingly while "his" other playing continues. @ 2:07, Manny is not second anymore but first on the left (Ooops, again!). I wish he would make up his mind where he wants to be playing and whether it's standing or squatting.
@2:33 suddenly all four are standing while they all throw slabs of ice, while they are all magically still playing off camera. That is some special kind of ice. Not only are randomly adjacent pieces in tune at different notes but they keep making sounds when the players get up to create more effects. Ice fit for please of God's.
Come on, the whole thing is pieced together with parts that don't match up, presented to be these four players performing the music on that lake as it is occurring because, they state, it doesn't occur elsewhere.
Entertaining? Yes! Believably special, not in my mind.
Has anyone ever seen or used a sampling keyboard? They can be placed in record mode and by exposing them to a single pure sound from any source, like a glass, wood block, a bell, it will produce that same sound as a different note for every key up and down the scale on it's keys, perfectly in tune to the corresponding piano key. They have been out for decades. All these sounds are easily done with a sampling keyboard and a single struck piece of ice as an input. So "NO", until given further proof beyond what I've seen in this video, I'm not and I assume Thor are not taking this at face value. I hope you can understand the position and the reasoning. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2013 : 02:04:20 [Permalink]
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I dunno. The editing is clever. But I can't see any reason why those sounds couldn't have come from hitting the ice.
I don't think it's an extraordinary claim to suggest that the acoustics under that section of ice allows for the kinds of sounds they were getting. It could be something as simple as open chambers of air under the ice that would make it possible. The size of pockets of air and the thickness of the ice would determine pitch. Totally plausible.
Also, when I say I don't think it's dubbed, what I mean is that I don't think outside instruments are being used in sync with ice thumping to create the illusion that it's ice. It's obvious that they edited what they did to bring several parts together to make a single recording. And I don't see why those sections couldn't have all been the ice. Heck. They didn't even try to hide the fact that it was edited. They could have. But they didn't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr03uBO416o |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2013 : 06:20:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
All these sounds are easily done with a sampling keyboard and a single struck piece of ice as an input. |
But Thor is saying that the ice doesn't sound like the sounds you hear in the video. He'd say that there are zero samples of actual ice sound in the video (though maybe he'd agree that the smashing ice sounds could be real).
Nobody is claiming the video is one take, unedited. Nobody is claiming that the audio is one take, unedited. The audio is obviously at least a multi-track layering of many individual samples which couldn't have been performed live by a mere four people.
No, the question is whether or not some of the lake Baikal ice has the tonal qualities heard in the audio. Thor is saying, "no," that the ice doesn't sound like that at all. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2013 : 07:53:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I don't think it's an extraordinary claim to suggest that the acoustics under that section of ice allows for the kinds of sounds they were getting. It could be something as simple as open chambers of air under the ice that would make it possible. The size of pockets of air and the thickness of the ice would determine pitch. Totally plausible. |
Here is exactly where we differ on the basis of accepting this. There is no difference in understanding what factors are conducive for this to occur but that they do exist here or can anywhere for that matter, with the degree that it does in this video is what raises flags for me.
Remember we are not talking one clear resonant note being exhibited and played to a beat but a collection of relatively in tune notes and their sources being in such close proximity to each other. That is what I find statistically extreme. We all seem to understand what's involved, like the thickness and area of the ice piece being struck or the fact that air pocket/s under the ice or the depth of water could have an effect. There are other particulars like the amount of connection or contact with the parts and where those contact points are about the slab. Add or move any contact and the resonant ring fails to occur. For example, if the slab being struck attached only along the back side the sound would be different if there are the other contact points in different places along the side or front. Change any one of numerous affecting factors and that "resonant ring" fails in being produced for that particular slab. I'm not saying it can't happen. I doubtful it possible to happen to where there are numerous occurring examples inches apart or several in the space of one meter, within easy reach of each player.
I cannot ignore these factors. That the players are striking the ice with bare and gloved hands but there is no noticeable difference to me, with the sounds produced. A simbal or chime would sound different if struck by a gloved or not hand. That is not evident that i can hear. I find that troublesome. Or that any possible air pockets if involved are "just so" for so many adjacent slabs. Any single air pocket is not likely to be resonant to two different adjacent slabs. Each pocket would need to be different in its acoustics and match the slab near it to give the ring. With any air pocket to be any help it's resonant frequency and the resonant frequency of the ice slab must be a close enough of a match to work.
I would think there would have to be an amazing set of variables coming into play just so for this to be occurring for the number of notes involved, over such a small area. That's the lump I can't swallow. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2013 : 08:14:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by sailingsoul
All these sounds are easily done with a sampling keyboard and a single struck piece of ice as an input. |
But Thor is saying that the ice doesn't sound like the sounds you hear in the video. He'd say that there are zero samples of actual ice sound in the video (though maybe he'd agree that the smashing ice sounds could be real). |
I read his 2 posts differently. If you think he meant zero when he didn't use the word, I'd like to know where zero came from in how you read it. He never used the word "zero" so for me I could never say he meant zero. I took his comments and not being so absolute. I have no trouble that ice can sound like this. By using electronic sampling all the sound heard are producible and I suspect that is most likely what was done with the production of this.
Nobody is claiming the video is one take, unedited. Nobody is claiming that the audio is one take, unedited. The audio is obviously at least a multi-track layering of many individual samples which couldn't have been performed live by a mere four people. |
Of course and I agree no one is saying that.
No, the question is whether or not some of the lake Baikal ice has the tonal qualities heard in the audio. Thor is saying, "no," that the ice doesn't sound like that at all.
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Well I feeling like I replied to Kil in my last post before this one. What it comes down to is unless they come clean on how this was made, some will accept it at face value and as presented. While others will be less accepting based on their own life's experiences and what they see and hear presented. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2013 : 08:34:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
If ice can sound like this or this or this, the alleged lake Baikal sounds aren't that extraordinary.
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Yes some interesting sounds indeed. What comes to mind for me is what is making these sounds are a far cry from what's going on with the op video. With the video being discussed I believe sampling and electronic processing is being used to produce the range of note they have. Here is an amplified ice xylophone of sorts. Notice the gloves. And more highly processed "ice" sourced sounds. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2013 : 10:15:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
I read his 2 posts differently. If you think he meant zero when he didn't use the word, I'd like to know where zero came from in how you read it. He never used the word "zero" so for me I could never say he meant zero. I took his comments and not being so absolute. I have no trouble that ice can sound like this. By using electronic sampling all the sound heard are producible and I suspect that is most likely what was done with the production of this. |
He said, "...ice doesn't sound like a skin drum." Unqualified, it means "ice doesn't sound like what you hear in that video, period." I, however, don't hear the sound of skin drums.
I suspect what happened at lake Baikal is totally ordinary: they discovered the ice makes this neat-o sound, so made a ton of single-tone recordings (perhaps some video of the process, too), probably including cutting slabs of ice down to change the pitch or voice, took them back to the studio and created a song from them. Then they went back to the lake with the song and a full video-recording set-up, and made a music video in the normal way: lots of takes, playing back the song to pantomime to, etc. They took those video clips (and ones made during the audio recording process, maybe) back to the studio and edited them into what we see, synched to the already-recorded song.
So I think the sounds in the video were "real" in that they are actual recordings of actual lake-ice sounds (probably processed through run-of-the-mill audio filters and maybe Autotuned to some extent), but the video is "fake" in exactly the same way that this video is "fake."
In this scenario, the gloves-on thing is merely a continuity error of sorts.| What it comes down to is unless they come clean on how this was made, some will accept it at face value and as presented. While others will be less accepting based on their own life's experiences and what they see and hear presented. |
Yes, in this day of the ubiquity of stolen copies of Photoshop and other editing software, some people will refuse to believe what's in any photo or audio recording no matter what. Others will uncritically accept what's placed before them despite the wide-spread ability to edit with near-professional results. I hope that nobody in this thread falls into either group. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2013 : 14:33:31 [Permalink]
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" Any single air pocket is not likely to be resonant to two different adjacent slabs. "
Why not? Also, if there are different thicknesses of the ice over the same air pocket, a different sound can be expected. Much like I can change the pitch of a guitar string just by moving my fingers up and down the neck, even though the resonant body of my guitar remains the same size always. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2013 : 20:43:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
" Any single air pocket is not likely to be resonant to two different adjacent slabs. "
Wrong. If there are different thicknesses of the ice over the same air pocket, a different sound can be expected. Much like I can change the pitch of a guitar string just by moving my fingers up and down the neck, even though the resonant body of my guitar remains the same size always.
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Hummm, You might have a point. The air pockets under the ice I was thinking of that are involved would be under the ice and not have a hole to the outside, like a guitar cavity has. Not sure they are the same thing or cause a same effect as with guitars.
Either way if this video is not as presented, as I suspect, I'm not going to convince anyone here who see's it as the real deal. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2013 : 12:34:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Either way if this video is not as presented, as I suspect, I'm not going to convince anyone here who see's it as the real deal. |
What - precisely - do you mean by "the real deal"? Do you think my hypothesis about the production of the video is completely implausible? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Lake Baikal Siberian ice drummers
