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 You know what's so laughable about Darwinism?
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

United Kingdom
1255 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2014 :  19:07:26  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Darwin didn't know about genetics, but if he did he probably would have thrown his tome "the Origin of Species" out with the bathwater.
As everyone knows human beings have 23 pairs of chromosomes, but all the great apes have 24 right? So "evolution" would suggest the ape/human common ancestor had 24 too. Now there is no moment when a whole species suddenly changes their number of chromosomes. It has to start with 1 random mutation and proliferate based upon the mutation's success.

So one day this common ancestor gives birth to something with a mutation; 2 chromosomes fused together. Now this infant abomination only has 23 chromosomes. What do we know about things with different numbers of chromosomes trying to breed? They usually have infertile offspring IF they can breed at all.
So the freak progeny, the supposed patriarch/matriarch of the human race would be pretty much the same as its ape brethren except for the huge problem of having low fertility or sterile offspring. Great mutation, I can really see that catching on!
In fact this problem pretty much kills the whole speciation myth dead.

Evolution: Debunked. Next please.


Edited by - On fire for Christ on 02/02/2014 19:09:16

Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4823 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  06:45:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess mongoliodism doesn't count as a random mutation......


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Dave W.
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Posted - 02/03/2014 :  08:00:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Usually." You've somehow turned that word into "always." Good work.

Comparison of genomes suggests that the Chromosome 2 Fusion event involved no loss of genes. The newly-minted chromosome would have had two centromeres, and pre-fusion genetic material would have had little problem lining up and joining with post-fusion DNA. If the fusion provided an advantage, or were simply more chemically stable, selective pressure could have favored it. More likely that the fusion was adaptively neutral, and because apes live in small troops, the Founder Effect played a role in its becoming fixed.

Chromosomal translocations, fusions and inversions happen all the time. Living, breeding humans are walking around today with them, and are phenotypically normal. You may be such a mutant yourself, without knowing it.

We're talking about a cross here between animals that differ by a single mutation. Not, say, the hundreds or thousands of mutations that separate modern horses and donkeys.

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Lithophile
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USA
5 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  10:35:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Lithophile a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm afraid I don't see how any of this follows from anything else. It seems to me a bunch of strings of unrelated content that don't point at all at any conclusion.

1: living apes have 24 chromosomes
2: humans have 23 chromosomes
3: Because of 1 and 2, The common ancestor of the two would have 24
4: Because of 3, a chromosomal fusion is the only explaination.
5: There are examples of chromosome fusion which produce retardation, infertility, and "abomonations", and "freak progeny"

6: Because of 5, all possible chromosome fusion will produce the same. no exceptions.

7: Therefore all of evolution has been refuted.

-------------------------
Logically, the above is not valid.

3 is not implied by 1 and 2. Given no other information, maybe they started with 23, and one split to form 24 on the rest of the apes. Maybe a new chromosome formed ex nihilo based on some previously unknown process. Maybe Sithrak, the Blind and Gibbering God of Evolution magicked it to happen this way.

basing 6 off of 5 is a fallacy. "There exists x as an element of set S which has the property p. Therefore all elements of set S have the property p."

Such a wide sweeping statement as 7 does not follow from anything prior that I could find.

--------------
Logically, it is not sound either. We know exactly where the fusion site occurs, and we can actually see it:



On these grounds, I reject the OP's debunk. Next please.

--
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sailingsoul
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2830 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  11:30:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What is your point besides demonstrating your unable or unwilling to understand the theory? We already knew that before you posted.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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sailingsoul
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2830 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  11:44:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Evolution: Debunked. Next please.
Of course it is, good job.

Even if TOE is 100% wrong, theist's belief in Zeus and every other delusion is unsupported by the no evidence. Go back to go, do not collect $200.
Next please...

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9648 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  12:20:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because sometimes strange things happen:
God........1
Evil-usion.0

or

Because sometimes strange things happens = evolution debunked.


This is the kind argument you get maybe from European pre-high school children and the average American high-school graduate.
But you live in bloody Europe, On fire for Christ. I would have expected better from you. (Or were you raised in USA?)

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9648 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  12:24:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"You know what's so laughable about Darwinism? "

Yes: It's so 19th century. We know so much more today.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Dave W.
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USA
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Posted - 02/03/2014 :  12:25:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

I guess mongoliodism doesn't count as a random mutation......
Trisomy 22 also doesn't cause sterility. Triple X women seem to have normal fertility (and according to that article, "Five to 10 girls with triple X syndrome are born in the United States each day"). And while extremely rare, some women with Turner's Syndrome have successfully carried pregnancies.

Also interesting: male echidnas have 63 chromosomes, while females have 64.

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Machi4velli
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USA
854 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  16:54:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
This is the kind argument you get maybe from European pre-high school children and the average American high-school graduate.
But you live in bloody Europe, On fire for Christ. I would have expected better from you. (Or were you raised in USA?)

We're not all idiots

Also, average high school graduates may not know what chromosomes are.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
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-Albert Camus
Edited by - Machi4velli on 02/03/2014 16:55:31
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

United Kingdom
1255 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  19:56:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Lithophile



3 is not implied by 1 and 2. Given no other information, maybe they started with 23, and one split to form 24 on the rest of the apes. Maybe a new chromosome formed ex nihilo based on some previously unknown process. Maybe Sithrak, the Blind and Gibbering God of Evolution magicked it to happen this way.



wow talk about clutching at straws, whether the common ancestor had 23 or 24 or 42, at some point we go from A to B and that's where the fertility problems make this a TERRIBLE ADAPTATION.

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Dave W.
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Posted - 02/03/2014 :  20:46:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

wow talk about clutching at straws, whether the common ancestor had 23 or 24 or 42, at some point we go from A to B and that's where the fertility problems make this a TERRIBLE ADAPTATION.
Provide evidence for that positive assertion, please. Provide evidence that a chromosomal fusion event creates immediate (next generation) "fertility problems."

Note that there isn't even any evidence - not one iota - that the fusion was an "adaptation" of any sort. Why do you think it was one?

(Just so you know, adaptationist biologists are generally sneered at by developmental biologists these days as being too strictly "Darwinian." The idea that mutation and selection are all there is to evolution is, indeed, laughable.)

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

United Kingdom
1255 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  22:51:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
fine, Dave. TERRIBLE "MUTATION". the point remains. Evidence? Check out the known effects of fusions of any of the human chromosomes then get back to me.

Also it's clear that according to evolutionary theory the human chimp common ancestor should have 48 chromosomes as the other great apes have 48, and the commons ancestor of all great apes supposedly predates the human/chimp common ancester, so whichever pedant brought that up should know better.

Originally posted by sailingsoul



Even if TOE is 100% wrong, theist's belief in Zeus and every other delusion is unsupported by the no evidence. Go back to go, do not collect $200.
Next please...


Sailingsoul, your fellow skeptics are too polite to tell you, but your posts are consistently embarrassingly bad and predictable.

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Dave W.
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Posted - 02/04/2014 :  03:01:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

fine, Dave. TERRIBLE "MUTATION".
Where's the evidence that it's "TERRIBLE"?
the point remains. Evidence? Check out the known effects of fusions of any of the human chromosomes then get back to me.
Show me. Show me the known effects of the fusion of any two human chromosomes. If there are known effects, they ought to be easy for you to Google up and link to. Support your assertion.
Also it's clear that according to evolutionary theory the human chimp common ancestor should have 48 chromosomes as the other great apes have 48, and the commons ancestor of all great apes supposedly predates the human/chimp common ancester, so whichever pedant brought that up should know better.
The thread's not that long. Nobody brought it up but you, just now. Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes. All other apes have 24 pairs of chromosomes. Do you need a primer on DNA chemistry to understand why only a single fusion is needed (to drop the total to 47) as a first step on a short path which ultimately resulted in the fusion of two pairs into one pair?

...Well, I suppose if you understood that, you wouldn't have started this thread. Is there a genetic difference between having 23 pairs of chromosomes and having one long strand of DNA?
Sailingsoul, your fellow skeptics are too polite to tell you, but your posts are consistently embarrassingly bad and predictable.
Actually, the "Darwin was wrong, therefore Goddidit" refrain isn't so rare as to not be implied by an OP like this.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2014 :  05:28:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ


Sailingsoul, your fellow skeptics are too polite to tell you, but your posts are consistently embarrassingly bad and predictable.

Right! You started this thread with two short paragraphs, then proclaimed you debunked Evolution. Pure man of genius are you. Your posts are bat shit crazy delusional.

How in the world would you know what "my" fellow skeptic or critical thinkers for that matter would be thinking about my posts? You have to few cognitive parallels with them to assume you know what they're thinking when it comes to reality, your supernatural beliefs or my posts. You shouldn't pretend to assume to know what any skeptic could be thinking.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1877 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2014 :  06:47:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by On fire for Christ

fine, Dave. TERRIBLE "MUTATION".
Where's the evidence that it's "TERRIBLE"?
the point remains. Evidence? Check out the known effects of fusions of any of the human chromosomes then get back to me.
Show me. Show me the known effects of the fusion of any two human chromosomes. If there are known effects, they ought to be easy for you to Google up and link to. Support your assertion
If a link is provided might as well be Casey Luskins, then we can all .

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Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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