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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
 Posted - 04/25/2005 : 08:28:50
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Okay, so now the European constitution has been written and referenda are coming up to decide whether the people in different nations agree with it. A question for the Europeans on this board (although of course others are welcome to join in anytime).
Does your country organize a referendum on the European constitution?
Have you studied the European constitution?
Do you agree with it?
As for me. The Netherlands organizes a referendum on the European constitution on the first of June. However, as of yet I have not studied the constitution, so I don't know what to think of it yet. Their have been some op-eds in different newspapers on it, from different viewpoints, but I'll really have to read it before I can choose which side I am on.
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 11:22:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
Okay, so now the European constitution has been written and referenda are coming up to decide whether the people in different nations agree with it. A question for the Europeans on this board (although of course others are welcome to join in anytime).
Does your country organize a referendum on the European constitution?
Have you studied the European constitution?
Do you agree with it?
As for me. The Netherlands organizes a referendum on the European constitution on the first of June. However, as of yet I have not studied the constitution, so I don't know what to think of it yet. Their have been some op-eds in different newspapers on it, from different viewpoints, but I'll really have to read it before I can choose which side I am on.
Tom,
Is there an online version of the European constitution? I'd like to read it just to find out what they're up to. (Finding out about ones neighbor produces tolerance and understanding about their primary motivators) |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 11:40:36 [Permalink]
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| I only had the dutch texts, but after looking around a bit, this might provide you with the information you need. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2005 : 16:23:39 [Permalink]
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I think my government is going for a referendum, and we are suppose to vote for it. But there's not much information circulating about it yet. I guess they hope we will vote what our parties tells us to vote.
But in that case, they are in for an uncomfortable surprise.
When we had one about switching currency to Euro, most of the parties (at least those representing a comfortable majority, both left and right parties) said "vote for Euro". But the public education about the consequences wasn't enough. I voted 'no' because of that, and I guess more felt just like me, because we gave a resounding "no!".
If our goverment doesn't start educating the Swedish public about this, they will get a new 'no!' vote.
I don't know yet, so I'm undecided. And if I'm undecided on the day it counts, I'll vote 'no'. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2005 : 06:41:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
I only had the dutch texts, but after looking around a bit, this might provide you with the information you need.
It does, thanks. It has a link to a PDF full text of the European constitution.
At 64 pages, it's quite a daunting task to read through all of it. So far, it echoes some of the lofty goals more succinctly put in the US Constitution. (It is really verbose) And then there's the expression of protocol and littany of states and their representatives as well as praise for the committee that wrote it. The goals it sets out sound similar to the preamble of the US Constitution. Establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.
I read it and thought, "holy crap, the US has become the King George of the 21st century". |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2005 : 14:47:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I read it and thought, "holy crap, the US has become the King George of the 21st century".
Ironic, isn't it?  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2005 : 13:19:17 [Permalink]
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| Will not be a referendum in Sweden, the government will present a proposal in the parliament this year. I support it. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2005 : 13:29:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I think my government is going for a referendum, and we are suppose to vote for it. But there's not much information circulating about it yet. I guess they hope we will vote what our parties tells us to vote.
But in that case, they are in for an uncomfortable surprise.
When we had one about switching currency to Euro, most of the parties (at least those representing a comfortable majority, both left and right parties) said "vote for Euro". But the public education about the consequences wasn't enough. I voted 'no' because of that, and I guess more felt just like me, because we gave a resounding "no!".
If our goverment doesn't start educating the Swedish public about this, they will get a new 'no!' vote.
I don't know yet, so I'm undecided. And if I'm undecided on the day it counts, I'll vote 'no'.
It doesn't matter how much information they will give us, because most people doesn't seem to care about what really goes on. I see this as a great opportunity to further build and develop the EU. I'm impatient because I feel it's going slow enough without stalling it even more. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2005 : 21:51:44 [Permalink]
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Well, the lack of interest in it here is somewhat troubling. I too want to see a unified Europe, with more member states and more equality. However, moving too fast will leave too many people behind. Current citizens of Europe needs to get with the program before a change into something remotely like United States of Europe can happen.
Many things need to be adjusted and fixed in Europe already. We have to let new ideas time to sink in and take root before we continue. Rome wasn't built in a day...
In Ireland and Poland, people are still having major trouble with the idea that abortions should be a (free) woman's free choice.
Sweden needs to trash that stupid law that prohibits research in safer (in fact, any kind of) nuclear power-plants. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2005 : 02:07:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Well, the lack of interest in it here is somewhat troubling. I too want to see a unified Europe, with more member states and more equality. However, moving too fast will leave too many people behind. Current citizens of Europe needs to get with the program before a change into something remotely like United States of Europe can happen.
I suppose you're right. We should take a few years to make the current union to work more smoothly, and let all the non-Euro nations adopt the Euro, for example.
quote:
Many things need to be adjusted and fixed in Europe already. We have to let new ideas time to sink in and take root before we continue. Rome wasn't built in a day...
Maybe after a generation or so we will see the advantages of uniting Europe, such as the freedom to move and work and study, for example.
EU is not and will never be perfect, we might as well accept that. We can however improve it. I think if we improved the democratic process, increased transparency and so on, people might respect EU more.
quote:
In Ireland and Poland, people are still having major trouble with the idea that abortions should be a (free) woman's free choice.
Yeah I know that Poland is very catholic and conservative? Anyway, there's not much to think about really. I think the system we have, with cost-free and completely confidential abortions ae allowed, is pretty much as good as it can get.
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Sweden needs to trash that stupid law that prohibits research in safer (in fact, any kind of) nuclear power-plants.
That is one of the most outrageous laws here. We should promote more research into this. I'm a big supporter of nuclear power and I think we should use it much more than today, until fusion reactors become a reality (anyday now! heh). Btw, when you say any kind of nuclear plants, surely that doesn't include fusion power? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2005 : 06:39:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Maverick
quote:
Sweden needs to trash that stupid law that prohibits research in safer (in fact, any kind of) nuclear power-plants.
That is one of the most outrageous laws here. We should promote more research into this. I'm a big supporter of nuclear power and I think we should use it much more than today, until fusion reactors become a reality (anyday now! heh).
I agree wholeheartedly.
quote:
Btw, when you say any kind of nuclear plants, surely that doesn't include fusion power?
It's been a long while since I read any of the documents, but I reacall it saying "nuclear power" as in 'not confined to nuclear fission power'. The law in it's whole needs to go though.
There is a Swedish nuclear plant design called "Secure" ('Se-cu-re' Swedish pronounciation) made not as an electrical power plant, but for district heating (Sw. fjärrvärmeverk). It's a low pressure system that by design automatically shuts down in case of overheating, not by a secutiry-system, but facilitated by the physical design of the reactor itself. Pretty fascinating stuff, I saw it on a science program long ago.
I also read that EU is developing a new reactor that also is under-critical (which means it will not get an uncontrollable reaction once the neutron-source is removed)
Edited to add:
Maverick, are you a memeber of "Environmentalists for Nuclear Power" (Miljövänner för Kärnkraft)?
http://www.mfk.nu/
Interesting site. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 04/29/2005 06:45:19 |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2005 : 00:50:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
It's been a long while since I read any of the documents, but I reacall it saying "nuclear power" as in 'not confined to nuclear fission power'. The law in it's whole needs to go though.
There is a Swedish nuclear plant design called "Secure" ('Se-cu-re' Swedish pronounciation) made not as an electrical power plant, but for district heating (Sw. fjärrvärmeverk). It's a low pressure system that by design automatically shuts down in case of overheating, not by a secutiry-system, but facilitated by the physical design of the reactor itself. Pretty fascinating stuff, I saw it on a science program long ago.
I also read that EU is developing a new reactor that also is under-critical (which means it will not get an uncontrollable reaction once the neutron-source is removed)
Edited to add:
Maverick, are you a memeber of "Environmentalists for Nuclear Power" (Miljövänner för Kärnkraft)?
http://www.mfk.nu/
Interesting site.
It's definitely the answer to the energy needs of a technological civilisation. New, safer reactors should be welcomed by everyone who is against nuclear power for safety reasons... or so one would think.
I didn't know about that website, very interesting indeed. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Dik-Dik Van Dik
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
76 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2005 : 14:19:44 [Permalink]
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| Well there's been the suggestion that if the people of france vote 'Non' which they look like doing, old Tony Blairs might get out of some hot water as it would be unnecessary to hhave a referendum here and save him the embbarassment of the clear NO vote he'd almost certainly get. |
DARWIN 3:16
"The simple believeth every word." - Proverbs 14:15
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