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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2006 :  05:44:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Also, there are many other religions where people gave/give their lives for what they believe to be true. Does that make them as valid as christianity? Or is christianity "special" for some reason?

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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donjoe
New Member

2 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2006 :  12:59:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send donjoe a Private Message
quote:
71 minus 33 equals 38 years. Wouldn't there be a lot people in Jerusalem in their late 50's and over saying hey wait a minute.

As I remember, life expectancy in those times was about 28 years. Telling the story 38 years later may be cutting it a little close, but it doesn't seem too close to give a shot. You'd have relatively few people still alive to remember anything and they'd have to remember something that happened in their infancy. Try remembering front page news from when you were 5. :)

On the other hand, this birth year may have been decided upon by studying Paul's epistles and realizing how much they could help the propagation of the new religion if the readers would be persuaded to think they're talking about the same (physical) Yeshua. Maybe placing the crucifixion just a decade or two before Paul wrote his letters was what convinced everyone that he was talking about the same Jesus as the "gospels".
Edited by - donjoe on 08/22/2006 13:03:30
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2006 :  23:25:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
According to this site, page two, life expectancy was on average:

* Hunter gatherers 10,000 BC- ~23 yrs
* Early farmers 8,000 BC- 16-20 yrs
* Roman citizens 100 AD ~25 yrs
* Roman slaves 100 AD ~20 yrs
* USA, England 1800 AD ~30 yrs
* USA, Europe 1850 AD ~35 yrs
* USA, Europe 1900 AD 40-50 yrs

But keep in mind the high infant mortality rate and deaths to some young people brings the rates down but doesn't preclude many people living much longer.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/22/2006 23:37:16
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend

USA
346 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2006 :  06:27:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send leoofno a Private Message
Um... this topic is listed as "HOT", but it doesn't really seem all that hot to me. Not even warm.

Who determines that sort of thing? Whats the criteria?

No biggie, just wondering.

"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2006 :  07:40:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by leoofno

Um... this topic is listed as "HOT", but it doesn't really seem all that hot to me. Not even warm.

Who determines that sort of thing? Whats the criteria?

No biggie, just wondering.



Number of posts.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend

USA
346 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2006 :  10:34:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send leoofno a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

quote:
Originally posted by leoofno

Um... this topic is listed as "HOT", but it doesn't really seem all that hot to me. Not even warm.

Who determines that sort of thing? Whats the criteria?

No biggie, just wondering.



Number of posts.


Oh, "HOT" as in generating a lot of interest and discussion, as opposed to "HOT" as in full of contentious, heated exchanges. Gee, I had it all wrong. Been lurking here all this time and hadn't picked up on that. Maybe I didn't notice because the topics here tend to get heated. I'm a bit surprised this one didn't, it had such potential.

"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2006 :  12:11:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by donjoe

quote:
71 minus 33 equals 38 years. Wouldn't there be a lot people in Jerusalem in their late 50's and over saying hey wait a minute.

As I remember, life expectancy in those times was about 28 years. Telling the story 38 years later may be cutting it a little close, but it doesn't seem too close to give a shot. You'd have relatively few people still alive to remember anything and they'd have to remember something that happened in their infancy. Try remembering front page news from when you were 5. :)

On the other hand, this birth year may have been decided upon by studying Paul's epistles and realizing how much they could help the propagation of the new religion if the readers would be persuaded to think they're talking about the same (physical) Yeshua. Maybe placing the crucifixion just a decade or two before Paul wrote his letters was what convinced everyone that he was talking about the same Jesus as the "gospels".


The Jewish people had a long written history going back over a thousand years. Exodus was written around 1400BC. Don't you think the Jewish clergy and the Roman local leaders would find it a little stange that there was no 38 year old writings or civic records or oral stories from their relatives or anything of a guy raising people from the dead and speaking to 5000 people on a mountain and being crucified by Pontius Pilate.

Also it is commonly belived that Moses lived to be 120 years old. And Sara gave birth at a very old age. Thomas Jefferson lived to be 83 and John Adams lived to be 90. And they didn't have any modern medicine. I'm around 50 and I have no problem remembering i968. In fact I can still remember our teacher telling us about the death of John Kennedy in 1963.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
Edited by - GK Paul on 08/23/2006 12:37:38
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2006 :  12:39:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Don't you think the Jewish clergy and the Roman local leaders
would find it a little stange that there was no 38 year old writings or civic records or anything of a guy raising people from the dead and speaking to 5000 people on a mountain and being crucified by Pontius Pilate.
Huh? Why would it be strange if those things never happened? Even if Jesus was a real person, do you have any idea the number of criminals executed by the Romans? How many records of those crucifixions do we have?

quote:
Also it is commonly belived that Moses lived to be 120 years old.
Lol. Who believes this?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/23/2006 12:39:38
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2006 :  12:55:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
The bible also says some people live to be 1000 years old...I'd like some independent verification of that.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2006 :  13:35:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Don't you think the Jewish clergy and the Roman local leaders
would find it a little stange that there was no 38 year old writings or civic records or anything of a guy raising people from the dead and speaking to 5000 people on a mountain and being crucified by Pontius Pilate.
Huh? Why would it be strange if those things never happened? Even if Jesus was a real person, do you have any idea the number of criminals executed by the Romans? How many records of those crucifixions do we have?

quote:
Also it is commonly belived that Moses lived to be 120 years old.
Lol. Who believes this?



Lol Who believes this (That Moses lived to 120 years)

I can pretty much guarantee you that Josephus, the guy that Atwill said invented Jesus, believed it. Remember Josephus wrote many many volumes about the history of the Jewish people. And Moses was pretty much the main man to the Jews. Deuteronomy Chapter 34, verse 7 {"And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim...").


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
Edited by - GK Paul on 08/23/2006 13:51:09
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2006 :  14:12:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I can pretty much guarantee you that Josephus, the guy that Atwill said invented Jesus, believed it. Remember Josephus wrote many many volumes about the history of the Jewish people. And Moses was pretty much the main man to the Jews. Deuteronomy Chapter 34, verse 7 {"And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim...").

So no modern scholars. Got it.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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topos
New Member

19 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2006 :  07:27:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send topos a Private Message
I found a couple of short Atwill interview videos on YouTube the other day:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CCBYp8eB0-I&mode=related&search=

These appear to be excerpted from the Manhattan Neighborhood Network shows that are in the process of airing, according to what's posted on the CM site.

Also there is a second IG show where Robert Price and Joe Atwill discuss CM. Price doesn't believe it. It's rather a contentious show and a ot of it made/makes me cringe, but there are a number of interesting things said.

http://infidelguy.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=120927

I think the subject of Paul comes up on this one (or the other one, I am not sure which at the moment). Basically somebody raises the same issue that Paul writing as commonly accepted in the 50s (I believe it is) would seem to rule out the CM hypothesis. Atwill replies that dates of authorship on the early writings are not actually well established, and could easily be later than commonly believed.

It seems to me that these bible scholar guys commonly put up a facade of certainty in so many areas when in reality all they have is a lot of speculation and accepted wisdom with little factual basis.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2006 :  08:25:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Well, the World Book Excylopedia says the 50s, so how could it (like the bible) be wrong?

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2006 :  14:08:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
Let's suppose for a moment that a guy was trying to trick his own people into being submissive to a foreign invader. Would it believable that someone who is disceitful, dishonoralble, and a traitor, could somehow uncover the deepest spiritual truths in the history of the world. Truths that save marriages, get people off drugs, totally rejeuvenate the lives of those in deep despair, and give us people like Pope John Paul II and Mother Theresa. If you were able to pull it off Mr. Josephus, my hats off to you.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
Edited by - GK Paul on 08/24/2006 14:12:07
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2006 :  15:14:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Would it believable that someone who is disceitful, dishonoralble, and a traitor, could somehow uncover the deepest spiritual truths in the history of the world.


Perhaps Josephus was tricked by the devil and this christianity is part of the devil's grand master plan that you have been rooked in to.

quote:
Truths that save marriages, get people off drugs, totally rejeuvenate the lives of those in deep despair, and give us people like Pope John Paul II and Mother Theresa.


Other religions and belief systems do the same. Again, why do you think christianity is special?

I submit the devil invented christianity to blind people from the true religion, and that any supposed good that comes from it is just part of the master plan that is so complicated as to be unknowable.

Why is that NOT as believable? It has the same falsification value...


by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 08/24/2006 15:14:51
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