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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 08/24/2006 : 15:36:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
The Jewish people had a long written history going back over a thousand years. Exodus was written around 1400BC. Don't you think the Jewish clergy and the Roman local leaders would find it a little stange that there was no 38 year old writings or civic records or oral stories from their relatives or anything of a guy raising people from the dead and speaking to 5000 people on a mountain and being crucified by Pontius Pilate.
Also it is commonly belived that Moses lived to be 120 years old. And Sara gave birth at a very old age. Thomas Jefferson lived to be 83 and John Adams lived to be 90. And they didn't have any modern medicine. I'm around 50 and I have no problem remembering i968. In fact I can still remember our teacher telling us about the death of John Kennedy in 1963.
Well-- Moses' age aside-- it's more complex than that. It isn't a question of "wouldn't some people aged 50+ in Jerusalem remember can call BS if there were lies being told." Yes, you remember JFK. But of course you did-- JFK was President and 'the leader of the free world' as we're told. Jesus? The evidence from the Gospels suggests that he was rather small time. If you're a shop keeper in Jerusalem, are you keeping up with all the trials and executions? And if so, are you going to remember them years later? And if so, are you going to be angry enough to start saying something? And if so, are you or your friends literate enough to write your objections down, and if so, is the church-- which ran Europe for centuries-- going to let such objections survive the ages?
Sorry to say, but somewhere in that chain you're going to get a "no" for an answer.
I actually come down on the Jesus-was-real side of the debate, though I also come down on the most-of-the-stuff-was-made-up side, too. In any case, if there were people saying "hey wait a minute-- that Jesus guy never turned water into wine; I'd have remembered" there's no way that's going to be conveyed in any direct sense to us, living 2000 years later.
That said, it's clear that some people were objecting to Jesus and the myths about him. You don't write that Jesus couldn't perform miracles in his home town, and that his family hated him, unless there were legitimate and compelling stories going around that said as much. Moreover, his paternal lineage was clearly an issue, and the Joseph aspect and the "virgin birth" has to be in some way an attempt to explain away some rather inconvenient (but compelling) rumors that he was born out of wedlock.
In any event, I don't know where I'm going with this. But my point (at least originally) was that the church didn't let much get through its censors unless it was on-message and clearly even doctored some things to make them more[i] on-message. Determining what [i]really happened is difficult in light of this. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 02:31:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
So Paul was "fully aware" of the ramifications of a non-risen, non-physical Christ, and yet he tirelessly and courageously devoted his life to the cause of this so called Jesus.
Actually, a close examination of Paul's writings do not suggest that he supposed Jesus' resurrection was physical in nature.
quote:
Nowhere in the accounts given in Acts are we actually told that Paul saw the risen Jesus. All he saw was a blinding light and a voice which his companions either did not hear or understand. The experience of Paul was nowhere near the tangible Jesus of the resurrected Jesus in the gospels. Paul's vision was a lot more uncertain than those described by the gospels.Yet we note that Paul in no way considered his vision as any different from those actually experienced by Peter and the other apostles.
and...
[quote]The precedent of the Pauline epistle strongly suggests that the appearances witnessed original followers of Jesus amount to nothing more than the type described by Paul, i.e. visions. We have absolutely no reason to believe that Paul understood Jesus' appearances to the apostles as anything different from his own experience.
Taken from Paul's Visions of the Resurrection on the website The Rejection of Pascal's Wager.
GK Paul: There is a lot of talk about Paul's experience with Christ as being just a vision. Well for one thing there was also a voice heard by the men who were with Paul. Acts Chapter 9 verse 7. But remember Acts was written by Josephus according to Atwill not Paul. Now lets go to 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse 3 which was written in 56 AD by Paul himself. Remember this is "at least 15 years before" Atwill said the whole Jesus Christ story was fabricated by Josephus.(71-79 C.E.) pg. 347 (Caesar's Messiah)
1 Corinthians chapter 15 vs.3 " I passed onto you what I received, which is of the greatest importance: that Christ died for our sins as was written in the scriptures; that He was buried and that he was raised to life 3 days later, as was written in the scriptures; that he appeared to Peter and than to all 12 apostles. Than he appeared to more than 500 of his followers all at once." [This might help explain the incredible growth of the church if a resurrected man appears to 500 followers all at once. Remember Paul wrote another letter to the Roman church in 58AD [And Josephus was still a general in the Jewish army in 66AD - nowhere near Rome]. That's incredible growth to have a church in Rome 25 years after the crucifixtion. What could cause that incredible growth. I maintain seeing your teacher raised from the dead is the driving force behind that incredible growth.]
Paul continues: Corinthians chapter 15 vs.7 "Than He (Christ) appeared to James and all the apostles. Last of all He also appeared to me (Paul)... Good News Bible (Today's English Version)
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"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 08/25/2006 05:12:45 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 04:51:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Lol. Who believes this?
Lol Who believes this (That Moses lived to 120 years)
I can pretty much guarantee you that Josephus, the guy that Atwill said invented Jesus, believed it.
Yes, but believing is the easy part.
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Remember Josephus wrote many many volumes about the history of the Jewish people. And Moses was pretty much the main man to the Jews. Deuteronomy Chapter 34, verse 7 {"And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim...").
Dueteronomy, the book of so much sacred, yet ignored, wisdom.
quote:
Duet 1, 10-14 Laws regarding the taking of a wife from conquered peoples.
Duet 3, 18-21 The penalty for a rebellious son.
Duet 17, 1- Transgressions against god
Duet 22, 13-21 The penalty for the hated wife.
And much much more...
The penalty for a hated wife is interesting, especially in the light of Duet 17, 6. Must have something to do with the idea that women were considered property. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 02:18:38 [Permalink]
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| A few people in this forum are trying to trivialize Paul's encounter with Christ for some reason. Whatever ever happened on that road to Damascus it gave him the motivation and the drive that turned the Roman empire on its ear. But what's amazing about all this is that Paul exhibits an extremely rational mind. As I said before Paul was fully aware that if Christ did not rise from the dead than Christians should be pitied and are just wasting their lives. He states this in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse 19 "If our hope in Christ is good for this life only and no more then we(Christians) deserve more pity than anyone else in the world." Paul knew the stakes and yet he still believed with all his heart and soul because after weighing all the evidence available to him he was convinced that Christ did indeed rise from the dead. He was also fully aware that he was risking his life every day for preaching his beliefs in Roman controlled areas. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 06:15:13 [Permalink]
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| Certain people in this world believe so strongly in their religion that they are willing and actually do give their very lives. Does that mean the relgion they beleive in is valid? If not, then why is christianity special? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 10:42:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
A few people in this forum are trying to trivialize Paul's encounter with Christ for some reason. Whatever ever happened on that road to Damascus it gave him the motivation and the drive that turned the Roman empire on its ear.
In the time of Paul and for the next 100+ years the Roman empire was at its height of power and influence. They were hardly aware of Paul and christians in general. Christian influence really took off early in the 4th century when it was adopted by Rome. And for the next 1000 years when it held a militaristic control over politics and the individual spiritual life throughout western Europe. A period of time aptly named, "The Dark Ages".
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
As I said before Paul was fully aware that if Christ did not rise from the dead than Christians should be pitied and are just wasting their lives.
How very sad for Paul, but I don't pity christians.
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
He states this in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse 19 "If our hope in Christ is good for this life only and no more then we(Christians) deserve more pity than anyone else in the world." Paul knew the stakes and yet he still believed with all his heart and soul because after weighing all the evidence available to him he was convinced that Christ did indeed rise from the dead. He was also fully aware that he was risking his life every day for preaching his beliefs in Roman controlled areas.
There is no doubt that Paul was very sincere in his beliefs. But repeating non-sense, even though sincere, brings you no closer to the truth, or the "Truth".
So, I believe that people rising from the dead is non-sense. What evidence do you have, that Paul had, that would change my mind. After all I am willing to change my mind should I consider the evidence compelling. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 12:13:16 [Permalink]
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"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." --Friedrich Nietzsche
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 12:20:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
A few people in this forum are trying to trivialize Paul's encounter with Christ for some reason. Whatever ever happened on that road to Damascus it gave him the motivation and the drive that turned the Roman empire on its ear.
In the time of Paul and for the next 100+ years the Roman empire was at its height of power and influence. They were hardly aware of Paul and christians in general. Christian influence really took off early in the 4th century when it was adopted by Rome. And for the next 1000 years when it held a militaristic control over politics and the individual spiritual life throughout western Europe. A period of time aptly named, "The Dark Ages".
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
As I said before Paul was fully aware that if Christ did not rise from the dead than Christians should be pitied and are just wasting their lives.
How very sad for Paul, but I don't pity christians.
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
He states this in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse 19 "If our hope in Christ is good for this life only and no more then we(Christians) deserve more pity than anyone else in the world." Paul knew the stakes and yet he still believed with all his heart and soul because after weighing all the evidence available to him he was convinced that Christ did indeed rise from the dead. He was also fully aware that he was risking his life every day for preaching his beliefs in Roman controlled areas.
There is no doubt that Paul was very sincere in his beliefs. But repeating non-sense, even though sincere, brings you no closer to the truth, or the "Truth".
So, I believe that people rising from the dead is non-sense. What evidence do you have, that Paul had, that would change my mind. After all I am willing to change my mind should I consider the evidence compelling.
1 Corinthians Chapter 1 verse 21: "For God in his wisdom made it impossible for people to know him by means of their own wisdom. Instead by means of the so-called "foolish" message we preach. God decided to save those that believe. Jews want miracles for proof, and Greeks look for wisdom. As for us, we proclaim the crucified Christ. A message that is offensive to the Jews, and nonsense to the Gentiles; but for those whom God has called, both Jews and Gentiles, this message is Christ, who is the power of God and the wisdom of God. For what seems to be God's foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and what seems to be God's weakness is stronger than human strength." |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 08/26/2006 12:24:12 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 12:26:58 [Permalink]
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Nice cop out.
To summarize: unless God calls you, it is impossible to know God. And to be saved, you have to be believe. But you can't believe unless you are called. And if you aren't called, you can't be saved (since you can't beleive), and you go to hell for eternity because God didn't choose you to begin with.
Nice "logic" there.
Thank you for playing. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/26/2006 12:29:53 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 13:23:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Nice cop out.
To summarize: unless God calls you, it is impossible to know God. And to be saved, you have to be believe. But you can't believe unless you are called. And if you aren't called, you can't be saved (since you can't beleive), and you go to hell for eternity because God didn't choose you to begin with.
Nice "logic" there.
Thank you for playing.
Well sir "call" is a translated word Paul used, but he never said if you aren't called you can't be saved. Why do you think he was risking his life everyday trying to teach his knowledge or Good News as he called it to people. Christ never said if you aren't called you can't be saved. I never believed in "Calvinistic" predestination for a minute. In my opinion the John Calvin philosophy is pretty much dying out. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 14:04:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Paul knew the stakes and yet he still believed with all his heart and soul because after weighing all the evidence available to him he was convinced that Christ did indeed rise from the dead.
Ok, so Paul fell for Pascal's Wager.
A lot of (christian, believeing) people has been sucked into placing the wrong bet.
Without a critical analysis of the options, Pascal's Wager does seem compelling enough.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 14:13:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Why do you think he was risking his life everyday trying to teach his knowledge or Good News as he called it to people.
There are Muslims who are risking their lives to teach their knowledge of the Koraan. Does that make them right too?
Just because there are people who are willing to die for their cause does not make it right. Some of the suicide bombers in the Middle East are religiously motivated, does their faith and willingness to die make you believe Muhammed had a point?
What is your motivation to think that Paul was anything but a mythical person?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 14:15:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well sir "call" is a translated word Paul used, but he never said if you aren't called you can't be saved. Why do you think he was risking his life everyday trying to teach his knowledge or Good News as he called it to people. Christ never said if you aren't called you can't be saved. I never believed in "Calvinistic" predestination for a minute. In my opinion the John Calvin philosophy is pretty much dying out.
I've demonstrated a couple of times that other people who believe in other religions risk there lives this very day. Does that make their religion valid? If not, why is christianity special? I've never seen an answer to this from you.
And just because you don't believe in predestination, doesn't mean that isn't how it works. Perhaps you just believe in the wrong version of religion....imagine the consequences if you are wrong. (see Pascal's Wager) |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/26/2006 14:17:31 |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 17:57:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Paul knew the stakes and yet he still believed with all his heart and soul because after weighing all the evidence available to him he was convinced that Christ did indeed rise from the dead. He was also fully aware that he was risking his life every day for preaching his beliefs in Roman controlled areas.
As others have pointed out, the strength of one's convictions has no correlation with the validity of those convictions. It is a trivial task to find two individuals with mutually exclusive beliefs, both of whom have come to their beliefs through a lifetime of study and reflection, and somehow "know" or "feel" they are correct.
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I never believed in "Calvinistic" predestination for a minute. In my opinion the John Calvin philosophy is pretty much dying out.
One could say the same about Christianity, and mainstream religion in general. It is in fact, supported by statistics. Do you interpret this as a sign that the common elements of these mainstream religions are false? |
John's just this guy, you know. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 04:28:59 [Permalink]
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| JohnOAS, Please show me those statistics and the source. I've given several verses and also page numbers in CM. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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Caesar's Messiah
Topic Locked
