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 Why Do Creationists Fear Evolution?
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2006 :  14:51:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the answer to the topic's title centers around the "authoritarian personality" of the Creationist:
quote:

. . .

Personality and Prejudice

During World War II, Hitler's Germany openly declared war on most of the world and secretly murdered six million Jews. Hitler had been elected by claiming his country was threatened from within by rioting students and from without by Russian Communists; he called for law and order. Jews were Germany's readily available scapegoat. Hitler became a strong, authoritarian leader and many of the German people accepted his control. Why do some people idolize leaders? Why do some parents demand obedience and harshly punish any misbehavior, especially anger towards them? Why are certain people more "straight," stern, distant, intolerant, and hostile while others are nonconformists, tolerant, and loving?

What kind of people would follow an aggressive, arrogant, critical, prejudiced leader? The classic book on this topic is The Authoritarian Personality. These authors (Adorno, Frenkel-Brunswick, Levinson & Sanford, 1950) described several traits of authoritarian leaders, like Hitler, and their followers, like the German people:

1. Rigid, unthinking adherence to conventional, middle-class ideas of right and wrong. The distinction has to be made between (a) incorporating (as in Kohlberg's stage 6--see chapter 3) universal values and (b) having blind allegiance to traditional social-political-religious customs or organizations. Examples: an egalitarian person who truly values one-person-one-vote, equal rights, equal opportunities, and freedom of speech will support a democracy, not a dictatorship. A person who says, "I love my country--right or wrong" or "America--love it or leave it" may be a flag-waving, patriotic speech-making politician who is secretly an antidemocratic authoritarian (similar in some ways to Hitler). For the authoritarian the values of respecting and caring for others are not as important as being a "good German" or a "good American" or a "good Catholic" or a "good Baptist."

Important values to an authoritarian are obedience, cleanliness, success, inhibition or denial of emotions (especially anger and even love), firm discipline, honoring parents and leaders, and abhorring all immoral sexual feelings. This was the German character. Authoritarian parents tend to produce dominated children who become authoritarian parents. Egalitarians produce egalitarians.

2. Respect for and submission to authority--parents, teachers, religion, bosses, or any leader. This includes a desire for a strong leader and for followers to revere the leader, following him (seldom her) blindly. It was believed by the psychoanalytic writers of The Authoritarian Personality that recognizing one's hostile feelings towards an authority was so frightening that the authoritarian personality was compelled to be submissive. There is an emphasis on following rules and regulations, on law and order. Everyone has a proper role to play, including gender role.

3. They take their anger out on someone safe. In an authoritarian environment (family, religion, school, peer group, government), the compliant, subservient, unquestioning follower stores up unexpressed anger at the authority. The hostility can't be expressed towards the authority, however, so it is displaced to an outsider who is different--a scapegoat. Unconsciously, the authoritarian says, "I don't hate my father; I hate Jews (or blacks or unions or management or ambitious women or Communists or people on welfare)." The "good cause" to which one is dedicated often dictates who to hate, who to be prejudice against.

4. They can't trust people. They believe "people who are different are no good." If we believe others are as bad or worse than we are, we feel less guilt: "Everybody looks out for #1" or "Everybody would cheat if they had a chance." Such a negative view of people leads to the conclusion that harsh laws and a strong police or army are necessary. Also, it leads people to foolishly believe that humans would "go wild" and be totally immoral if they lost their religion.

5. Because they feel weak, authoritarian personalities believe it is important to have a powerful leader and to be part of a powerful group. Thus, they relish being in the "strongest nation on earth," the "master race," the "world-wide communist movement," "the wealthiest nation," the "best corporation," the "best part of town," the "best-looking crowd," the "best team," etc. The successful, the powerful, the leaders are to be held in awe. And the authoritarian says, "when I get power, I want to be held in awe too. I'll expect respect, just like I demand it from my children."

6. Over-simplified thinking. If our great leaders and our enormous government tells us what to do, if our God and our religion directs our lives, then we don't have to take responsibility for thinking or deciding. We just do what we are told. And, in general, we, "the masses," are given simple explanations and told the solutions are simple by authoritarian leaders. Examples: "The source of the trouble is lenient parents (or schools or laws)," "God is on our side," "Get rid of the Jews (or Capitalists or Communists or blacks or Arabs)." For the authoritarian if things aren't simple, they are unknowable, e.g. he/she endorses the statement, "science has its place, but there are many important things that can never possibly be understood by the human mind."

7. Guard against dangerous ideas. Since the authoritarian already has a handle on the truth, he/she opposes new ideas, unconventional solutions, creative imaginations. They believe an original thinker is dangerous; he/she will think differently. It's considered good to be suspicious of psychologists, writers, and artists who probe your mind and feelings--such people are scary. Governments who observe subversives are OK, though. Indeed, censorship of the media may become necessary, especially if the media becomes critical of our leaders or sexually provocative. A businessperson produces needed products; an intellectual is a threat.

8. I'm pure, others are evil. The authoritarian represses his/her aggressive and sexual feelings, then projects those traits on to stereotyped persons in the outgroup (see defense mechanisms in chapter 5). For example, it was Larry King's and other white men's dishonesty, laziness, hatred, and sexual urges that got projected to the black man (see quote above). The authoritarian, therefore, feels surrounded by people preoccupied with sex and/or violence. The psychoanalysts who wrote The Authoritarian Personality say the sexual fears come from an unresolved Oedipus or Electra Complex. The hostility comes from childhood (see #2 & #3 above) too and throughout their lives authoritarians expect criminal acts nearby and terrorists' attacks around the world. They become paranoid, believing many people want to hurt them (which justifies their aggression?).

9. Ethnocentrism: Everything of mine is better than yours--my country, my religion, my kind of people, my family, my self. Research has also shown the authoritarian is more prejudiced and more prone to punish people (including their own children) to get them to work harder or to do "right" (Byrne & Kelley, 1981).

This picture of an authoritarian isn't pretty. How many of these people are there? Zimbardo's "prison study" suggests that the potential for authoritarianism may be quite high, given the right circumstances. It is estimated that at least 80% of us have prejudices. Hostility (especially the you-are-not-my-equal and I-don't-care-about-you type) abounds in the world. Milgram's study of obedience (in chapter 8) suggests 65% of us would physically hurt someone if told to do so by an authority. Also, in that chapter we will see that most of us conform to social pressures in dress, in opinions, in behavior. Maybe there are parts of an authoritarian personality inside all of us.

. . .


Note how the authoritarian personality perfectly fits with the use of "the Big Lie" and "doublethink," both phenomena I've recently discussed briefly in these fora.




Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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skeptic griggsy
Skeptic Friend

USA
77 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2007 :  02:22:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit skeptic griggsy's Homepage Send skeptic griggsy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Creationists lie about evolution in order to save morality! They fear that evolution teaches that because we are apes, we are less than human- immorality would abound.

Fr. Griggs rests in his Socratic ignorance and humble naturalism. Logic is the bane of theists.Religion is mythinformation. Reason saves, not a dead Galilean fanatic.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2007 :  11:36:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To answer the opening question:

Evolution deems natural occurrence as the cause of the creation of man; as such there is no law outside mans law to govern the behavior of man. Without an external law giver, the fear is mans harming of man through mans law.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2007 :  12:52:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

To answer the opening question:

Evolution deems natural occurrence as the cause of the creation of man; as such there is no law outside mans law to govern the behavior of man. Without an external law giver, the fear is mans harming of man through mans law.


Now there's a logical mish-mash! As I read you, Jerome:

1. Evolutionary theory says nature created man.

2. So those who believe in evolution believe only man's laws apply to man.

3. Thus, Creationists are afraid of man's laws.

Call me dense, but there seem to be absolutely no logical connections between these three statements. Point 1 does not lead to point 2, which in turn does not lead to point 3.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2007 :  19:42:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Halfmooner:

"1. Evolutionary theory says nature created man."

---Than man has the ability to create his own laws


"2. So those who believe in evolution believe only man's laws apply to man."

---If no one is above man, mans laws are supreme. This would apply to all people not just depended on what one believes


"3. Thus, Creationists are afraid of man's laws."

---Yes, thats the point of the answer

You asked what are they afraid of, I gave you a reasoned logical answer: MANS LAW.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2007 :  11:41:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Halfmooner:

"1. Evolutionary theory says nature created man."

---Than man has the ability to create his own laws
That doesn't follow logically. Evolutionary theory also says nature created cockroaches, but cockroaches lack the ability to formulate laws. The ability to create laws is independent of the method by which a being was created.
"2. So those who believe in evolution believe only man's laws apply to man."

---If no one is above man, mans laws are supreme. This would apply to all people not just depended on what one believes
But because it's demonstrably false on at least two counts, who cares how it would apply?
You asked what are they afraid of, I gave you a reasoned logical answer: MANS LAW.
But it's the wrong answer, and based upon incorrect premises. We know the answer historically. If the Bible is wrong about creation, then the Bible might be wrong about Jesus, and if it's wrong about Jesus then nobody is "saved," and everyone is doomed to simply die. No afterlife, no nothing. To someone who's been promised a blissful eternity after a lifetime of suffering here on Earth, having that promise even called into question is terrifying.

It has nothing to do with "Man's Law," even if you had been able to present a logical argument about it.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2007 :  12:01:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What it boils down to is that we are a social animal, for better or ill. As such, we respond to certain rules ingrained within our society, or, unfortunately, sub-society, just like troops of baboons, herds of ungulates, and pods of whales. Without them our species would not have lasted long enough to compose religious drivel.

Me, I'd like the mythical 72 virgins in the afterlife. It's just all the crap you have to go through and still not get them..... But it helps keep the troops in line, which is the purpose of the whole thing.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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bob
New Member

South Africa
2 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  06:29:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bob a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Evolution is the enabler of atheism.Evolution gives atheists a basis for explaining how life exists apart from a Creator God.Evolution denies the need for a God to be involved in the universe.Evolution is the "creation theory"for the "religion" of atheism.According to the Bible,the choice is clear. We can believe the Word of our omnipotent and omniscient God, or we can believe the idealogically biased,"scientific" explanations of fools
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  07:37:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey bob

Lack of evidence and the very fundamentals of religions are the enablers of atheism. Evolution does not deny anything about any god(s).

Unless, of course, you need to define evolution and atheism in such a way so you can justify your personal worldview. The ability to lie and distort by the religious fundamentalists never ceases to amaze me.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13476 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  10:12:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bob

Evolution is the enabler of atheism.Evolution gives atheists a basis for explaining how life exists apart from a Creator God.Evolution denies the need for a God to be involved in the universe.Evolution is the "creation theory"for the "religion" of atheism.According to the Bible,the choice is clear. We can believe the Word of our omnipotent and omniscient God, or we can believe the idealogically biased,"scientific" explanations of fools
Science says nothing about God because it can't. Science is the study of the natural world. It goes where it goes. The theory of evolution is one of the best supported theories in science. It explains the diversity of life on this planet. There are plenty of Christian evolutionary biologists, by the way.

So what you propose is to get rid of any science, no matter where it leads, if it is inconvenient to a literal interpretation of genesis.

I'm sorry if knowledge scares you. But them's the breaks...


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend

275 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  10:53:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send perrodetokio a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bob

Evolution is the enabler of atheism.Evolution gives atheists a basis for explaining how life exists apart from a Creator God.Evolution denies the need for a God to be involved in the universe.Evolution is the "creation theory"for the "religion" of atheism.According to the Bible,the choice is clear. We can believe the Word of our omnipotent and omniscient God, or we can believe the idealogically biased,"scientific" explanations of fools


As others have explained before, evolution is not concerned with the creation of life, just with the diversity of species. It´s not meant to explain how life came to be, just what happened afterwards.

Cheers

"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott

"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott

"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  11:25:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Evolution is the enabler of atheism.Evolution gives atheists a basis for explaining how life exists apart from a Creator God.Evolution denies the need for a God to be involved in the universe.Evolution is the "creation theory"for the "religion" of atheism.According to the Bible,the choice is clear. We can believe the Word of our omnipotent and omniscient God, or we can believe the idealogically biased,"scientific" explanations of fools


So you are afraid of losing power over people?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  12:35:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bob

Evolution is the enabler of atheism.Evolution gives atheists a basis for explaining how life exists apart from a Creator God.Evolution denies the need for a God to be involved in the universe.Evolution is the "creation theory"for the "religion" of atheism.According to the Bible,the choice is clear. We can believe the Word of our omnipotent and omniscient God, or we can believe the idealogically biased,"scientific" explanations of fools



In other words: before, when somebody did not believe in God, we could wave in the direction of the world and asked them where it came from and that would shut them up.

Now these infidels have an answer and we lost our best argument so we will decredibilize them to feel smarter again.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend

USA
346 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  13:54:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send leoofno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bob

Evolution is the enabler of atheism.Evolution gives atheists a basis for explaining how life exists apart from a Creator God.Evolution denies the need for a God to be involved in the universe.Evolution is the "creation theory"for the "religion" of atheism.According to the Bible,the choice is clear. We can believe the Word of our omnipotent and omniscient God, or we can believe the idealogically biased,"scientific" explanations of fools

I think bob is mostly correct in his assessment of why creationists fear evolution. Evolution provides a grander and more elegant explanation for the diversity of life on Earth than any theistic creation story, and it fits all the available evidence. That such a simple idea can explain so much is nothing short of awe inspiring. As such it IS an enabler of atheism. It provides very credible “filler” for one of the largest “gaps” that the religious have filled with God. And because of this it DOES deny the need for a God to be involved, at least in that aspect of the universe. If someone can think that God is not needed there, then perhaps He is not needed elsewhere. This has got to be very scary stuff for a true believer.

Bob, you are wrong that atheism is a religion, or that atheism is biased. However, science IS biased (toward evidence based explanations), and you seem to be confusing science with atheism. While I think its true that many atheists have a high respect for the scientific method (and perhaps thats how they became atheistic), it is not required.

"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 :  14:08:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As such it IS an enabler of atheism. It provides very credible “filler” for one of the largest “gaps” that the religious have filled with God.


I may be alone on this, but it seems to be a good discussion worth exploring. I personally find myself divided. Part of me says that goddidit is never a valid explanation, and as such evolution does not enable atheism. On the other hand, I would find it extremely difficult winning an argument against the IDers if it weren't evolution. And when I say wining an argument, I don't mean convincing a crowd, I mean convincing myself.

I also became an atheist before I had ever learned about evolution, at least in any sort of depth.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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