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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2008 : 14:20:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bob
Evolution is the enabler of atheism.Evolution gives atheists a basis for explaining how life exists apart from a Creator God.Evolution denies the need for a God to be involved in the universe.Evolution is the "creation theory"for the "religion" of atheism.According to the Bible,the choice is clear. We can believe the Word of our omnipotent and omniscient God, or we can believe the idealogically biased,"scientific" explanations of fools
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Hi Bob, and welcome to SFN!
Atheism was extant long before Darwin postulated the Theory of Evolution. Evolution might lean in support of atheism but it is certainly not the basis for it. That can be found in religious dogma, most if not all of which defies rational thought. At one time, atheism was considered an heresy (still is in some circles) and could get the atheist a very unpleasant death.
Science is not based on any sort of silly ideology. It cannot be because as new information comes in, science must adapt to accommodate it. It is observation-driven, something religion is not and by it's very nature, cannot be.
Here's an interesting site that you might like to have a look at.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 15:36:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by leoofno
Bob, you are wrong that atheism is a religion, or that atheism is biased. |
I don't think Bob is wrong, it's just that he's expressing a theist's view (though it's probably not his own), which is wrong.
My impression of Bob's post is that he's playing the devil's advocate for the purpose of answering the question of the opening post. Not that he actually has that view.
Edit: that was my first impression anyway. I might have been wrong. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 08/12/2008 15:38:47 |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 19:28:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by leoofno
Bob, you are wrong that atheism is a religion, or that atheism is biased. |
I don't think Bob is wrong, it's just that he's expressing a theist's view (though it's probably not his own), which is wrong.
My impression of Bob's post is that he's playing the devil's advocate for the purpose of answering the question of the opening post. Not that he actually has that view.
Edit: that was my first impression anyway. I might have been wrong.
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Yes, thats entirely possible. I should have seen that. If thats the case: Sorry, bob. And as I said, I think you are correct.
Ricky: Richard Dawkins (blatant appeal to authority) also sees evolution as enabling atheism, and says so IIRC in his new BBC series on Charles Darwin. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 20:03:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Part of me says that goddidit is never a valid explanation, and as such evolution does not enable atheism. |
That's exactly right. Despite Bob's assertions, atheists do not require evolution. Even without a positive explanation, "I don't know" is a perfectly valid substitute for evidence-free religious assertions of agency.
Dawkins, I think, understands this as well. His statement was that evolution allows one to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist. Meaning, we don't no longer have to settle for "I don't know." Atheism was always a valid option, but evolution provides a mechanism for explaining apparent design, and thus undercuts much of the positive "evidence" cited for the god-of-the-gaps. (Perhaps, leoofno, you are thinking of another of Dawkins' statements?)
So evolution doesn't exactly "enable" atheism, but it certainly weakens the case for theism by pushing down the flimsy argument-from-design that theists had been relying on for centuries. ID was their near desperate attempt to save it, because without it they don't have much else. That's why even Catholics will only endorse directed evolution. They cannot accept undirected design. It's fatal to their assumptions.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/12/2008 20:08:29 |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 05:15:10 [Permalink]
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Perhaps I take a too broad view of the word "enabling". I would say that providing a more thrilling view of creation than any religion, and allowing one to be intellectually fulfilled, would constitute enabling. I don't have a transcript, but what I "got" from watching Dawkin's "The Genius of Darwin" was that evolution made being an athiest much easier. I consider that enabling.
For example, I could be an alcoholic despite my wife's best efforts. However, if instead she looks the other way and covers for me with our friends and neighbors, then she is an enabler. I agree that atheism does not require evolution, and that atheism has a long history predating Darwin, but if evolution makes it easier to be an atheist then it is an enabler.
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"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 12:23:28 [Permalink]
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Evolution is merely a description of reality. If evolution "enables" atheism then reality enables atheism.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 12:31:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Evolution is merely a description of reality. If evolution "enables" atheism then reality enables atheism. |
The point seems to be that ignorance of evolution wouldn't enable atheism, whether evolution exists or not. So perhaps it is knowledge of reality which "enables" atheism.
Go figure, that's what the Bible says, too, when it warns against all that "worldly" learning. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 12:52:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Evolution is merely a description of reality. If evolution "enables" atheism then reality enables atheism.
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Perhaps it is the process of discovering reality that enables atheism. When you have no true knowledge, only fervently believed stories, those stories may seem reasonable because you simply do not know any better. When the scientific method begins revealing the truth, as in evolution, you may begin to see the stories for what they are: just stories.
The creation story is one of the foundations of the Bible. It is layed out as fact: here's what happened. When you can show that the story is false, it casts doubt on the entire Book. Now you might simply abandon your Christian beliefs for another religion, but I think a lot of people will avoid them, since they won't match reality any better, and move toward atheism.
So I would say that the process of discovering reality enables atheism, and evolution is one of the more enabling bits. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/13/2008 : 13:13:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
I agree with your take on it, leoofno. While atheism is able to exist without evolution, evolution enables (makes easier, more accessible) atheism.
The question in my mind now is how many atheists would there be if evolution was not known about? Certainly you can logically justify atheism without evolution, but humans aren't logic machines. If there were such a small number of atheists had evolution never been discovered, then I would still say evolution makes atheism able to exist.
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The fact is that evolutionary process' do exist and a great many people are capable of critical thought -- although it doesn't seem that way much of the time. If Darwin hadn't written it up, then someone else would have, and the YECretins & IDemented might be calling us 'Jablonskists'or somedamnthing instead. Atheism/theism is completly divorced from evolution and while it might make atheists feel a little better, and the more hide-bound, knee-jerk theists feel a little worse, it makes not the least difference to the basics of either outlook. There have always been atheists; there have always been theists, and the only thing that changes even slightly are the population percentages. And while I have no way to verify it, I suspect that even those don't change all that much at any given time period, in any given place.
And let us not forget that theists, indeed, a majority of them if what I've read is correct, accept the ToE, albeit with a little God tossed in to blend the mix.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2008 : 12:54:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Ricky
I agree with your take on it, leoofno. While atheism is able to exist without evolution, evolution enables (makes easier, more accessible) atheism.
The question in my mind now is how many atheists would there be if evolution was not known about? Certainly you can logically justify atheism without evolution, but humans aren't logic machines. If there were such a small number of atheists had evolution never been discovered, then I would still say evolution makes atheism able to exist.
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The fact is that evolutionary process' do exist and a great many people are capable of critical thought -- although it doesn't seem that way much of the time. If Darwin hadn't written it up, then someone else would have, and the YECretins & IDemented might be calling us 'Jablonskists'or somedamnthing instead. Atheism/theism is completly divorced from evolution and while it might make atheists feel a little better, and the more hide-bound, knee-jerk theists feel a little worse, it makes not the least difference to the basics of either outlook. There have always been atheists; there have always been theists, and the only thing that changes even slightly are the population percentages. And while I have no way to verify it, I suspect that even those don't change all that much at any given time period, in any given place.
And let us not forget that theists, indeed, a majority of them if what I've read is correct, accept the ToE, albeit with a little God tossed in to blend the mix. |
While there always have been some atheists, it seems to me that their number has slowly increased in the last 50 years, especially in Western Europe. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2009 : 15:06:00 [Permalink]
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Ricky wrote:
I may be alone on this, but it seems to be a good discussion worth exploring. I personally find myself divided. Part of me says that goddidit is never a valid explanation, and as such evolution does not enable atheism. On the other hand, I would find it extremely difficult winning an argument against the IDers if it weren't evolution. And when I say wining an argument, I don't mean convincing a crowd, I mean convincing myself. |
Then Simon wrote: | While there always have been some atheists, it seems to me that their number has slowly increased in the last 50 years, especially in Western Europe. |
Before the theory of evolution and the evidence which backs it up, there were always atheists, but they were smaller in number because to be an atheist (I'm using the broad meaning of "atheist" to include agnostics/religious skeptics) meant to be intellectually brave as well as wise, first because it was more socially unacceptable to not believe in the dogma of the day and also because uncertainty is scary. The ultimate answer to these questions about divine power and souls and afterlife is "We still don't know." That was the answer before Darwin's theory and that is still the answer. It's just that the sheer amount of info we've managed to gather about reality through science has increased the number of people who are comfortable with religious uncertainty. They have exchanged it for the security of feeling certain that at least the natural world has some kind of dependable and predictable order. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Why Do Creationists Fear Evolution?
