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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2008 :  19:29:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by freewest4ever

You guys are still posting on this rubbish? Well, if you need proof that the modern Ethiopo-"Greeks" are killing and murdering Macedonians, just watch the NEWS these days! See what they are doing! STEALING OUR HISTORY! And they are supported by brainwashed people like YOU!

Shame on you all... I hold you all accountable for the situation in which my country is now. Our land has been stolen. Our people have been killed. We are not even allowed our own name.


Ladies and gentlemen, Odd Fundie game numbers 54 (the flounce), 58 (the big lie), 67 (kicking the Shmoo), and a variation of 136 (you are a liberal and hate America).

Really, holding us accountable for the opinions of archelogical studies? Us, brainwashed? By whom?

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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knkavo
New Member

Greece
11 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2008 :  05:00:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send knkavo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And here is the page in English:

http://www.antikythera-mechanism.gr/data/models/solid-models.html

I'm not sure what freewest4ever is about, looking over his posts again, he seems very knowledgeable about the various insane theories put forward by both my fellow Greeks and my neighbour Macedonians. Maybe he is actually from one of the two countries, who knows.

Anyway, that is not the point of this board. The sad fact is that we really do have that kind of crazy nationalism here in the Balkans, though it seems to be dying out slowly and the various peoples are re-discovering their shared culture and history. We really don't need f***ers like him fanning the flames...

'Oh, obvious,' said Granny. 'I'll grant you it is obvious. Trouble is, just because things are obvious doesn't mean they're true.' - Granny Weatherwax

"You have insulted my footwear. My sandals do not like to be laughed at." - Samurai Jack
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9687 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2008 :  11:27:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
knkavo, I don't think there's anyone here who takes him seriously, other than that he has a serious problem.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2008 :  17:27:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Many thanks for the translation. That's certainly an interesting machine, especially given the technology of the day.

As Doc says, not to be fussed about our absent friend; they come & go, and for the most part, their tenures are brief. And for the most part, they leave without even being asked, as freewest4ever seems to have done.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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knkavo
New Member

Greece
11 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2008 :  10:38:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send knkavo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/pubs/jrnl/2008-Computer-Antikythera/html/Spi08d.htm

I have to admit most of this is beyond me, but maybe someone on here can understand it and help explain it to me.

'Oh, obvious,' said Granny. 'I'll grant you it is obvious. Trouble is, just because things are obvious doesn't mean they're true.' - Granny Weatherwax

"You have insulted my footwear. My sandals do not like to be laughed at." - Samurai Jack
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2008 :  10:54:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Explanation: Mechanism was created by the Romans, to stop the evil Ethiopians from going back in time to kill John Conner.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2008 :  11:34:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by knkavo

http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/pubs/jrnl/2008-Computer-Antikythera/html/Spi08d.htm

I have to admit most of this is beyond me, but maybe someone on here can understand it and help explain it to me.
Fascinating. Looks like Diomidis Spinellis used a toy gear set ("Squeak EToys") to physically emulate the Antikithera Mechanism, rather than to simulate it on a computer as others have already done. Clever and cool, sez me.

BTW, just looking at the gearing used for calculations such as eclipses got me wondering if the old Ptolemaic epicycle theory of the solar system may have been developed after looking at something much like the Mechanism -- or vice versa.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2008 :  21:25:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Looks like Diomidis Spinellis used a toy gear set ("Squeak EToys") to physically emulate the Antikithera Mechanism, rather than to simulate it on a computer...
Not quite:
One can find on the web a number of Antikythera Mechanism simulators. These replicate the mechanism's operation in software using computer arithmetic to simulate the gear interactions, and then reflect back the computed results onto the simulated gears... In contrast my implementation is an emulator design of the modern model. The emulator doesn't calculate the gear positions. Instead, it employs mechanical principles (gear teeth pushing each other) to emulate the mechanism at a physical level.

This approach allowed me to experience the physical properties of the mechanism and appreciate the thinking of its ancient developer(s). It also fitted neatly with of the constructivist learning approach of the EToys platform I used.

EToys programming is based on assembling together primitives that manipulate visual objects appearing on the screen...

Each gear and dial appearing on the screen is a separate object. Although the gears may look formidable, building them was simple: I constructed them as polygons, tooth by tooth. I started with an empty polygon. After I added the tooth's two vertices, I rotated the gear by the tooth's displacement, and repeated the operation. This mode of construction resembles the manual cutting of physical gear teeth. Having the gears as polygons makes modeling their interactions a child's play. EToys has a built-in primitive to locate overlapping objects. Thus, on each time step I simply look for overlapping polygons and rotate them in the appropriate direction.
It's still clever and cool, though. Gotta get that software. The boy will love it.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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knkavo
New Member

Greece
11 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2008 :  23:11:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send knkavo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BigPapaSmurf you are the only one to have discovered the link to John Conner... Now I will gather together my fellow evil Starving Ethenopians and bring our evil plans to fruition early, and it's all your fault.

A little info on Spinellis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diomidis_Spinellis

Not being familiar with either computer programming or astronomy, what interests me most about this device is the level of technological sophistication that apparently had been reached at that time. Popular opinion has it that the Greeks used technology mainly for toys and in temples to fool believers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

It is certainly strange that the Romans (who as someone correctly stated in one of their reponses to our friend freewest4ever seemed to be better at making practical engineering applications of their knowledge) didn't expand on these toys and adapt them for industry or war.

'Oh, obvious,' said Granny. 'I'll grant you it is obvious. Trouble is, just because things are obvious doesn't mean they're true.' - Granny Weatherwax

"You have insulted my footwear. My sandals do not like to be laughed at." - Samurai Jack
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2008 :  00:41:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by HalfMooner

Looks like Diomidis Spinellis used a toy gear set ("Squeak EToys") to physically emulate the Antikithera Mechanism, rather than to simulate it on a computer...
Not quite:
One can find on the web a number of Antikythera Mechanism simulators. These replicate the mechanism's operation in software using computer arithmetic to simulate the gear interactions, and then reflect back the computed results onto the simulated gears... In contrast my implementation is an emulator design of the modern model. The emulator doesn't calculate the gear positions. Instead, it employs mechanical principles (gear teeth pushing each other) to emulate the mechanism at a physical level.

This approach allowed me to experience the physical properties of the mechanism and appreciate the thinking of its ancient developer(s). It also fitted neatly with of the constructivist learning approach of the EToys platform I used.

EToys programming is based on assembling together primitives that manipulate visual objects appearing on the screen...

Each gear and dial appearing on the screen is a separate object. Although the gears may look formidable, building them was simple: I constructed them as polygons, tooth by tooth. I started with an empty polygon. After I added the tooth's two vertices, I rotated the gear by the tooth's displacement, and repeated the operation. This mode of construction resembles the manual cutting of physical gear teeth. Having the gears as polygons makes modeling their interactions a child's play. EToys has a built-in primitive to locate overlapping objects. Thus, on each time step I simply look for overlapping polygons and rotate them in the appropriate direction.
It's still clever and cool, though. Gotta get that software. The boy will love it.
Ah, software. Cool!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2008 :  07:54:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by knkavo

BigPapaSmurf you are the only one to have discovered the link to John Conner... Now I will gather together my fellow evil Starving Ethenopians and bring our evil plans to fruition early, and it's all your fault.

A little info on Spinellis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diomidis_Spinellis

Not being familiar with either computer programming or astronomy, what interests me most about this device is the level of technological sophistication that apparently had been reached at that time. Popular opinion has it that the Greeks used technology mainly for toys and in temples to fool believers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

It is certainly strange that the Romans (who as someone correctly stated in one of their reponses to our friend freewest4ever seemed to be better at making practical engineering applications of their knowledge) didn't expand on these toys and adapt them for industry or war.



May have been too tiny and marginal an 'industry' for them to notice.
I suspect that the mechanism was somewhat of a 'toy for the idle and rich' and it was certainly prohibitively expansive to make.

Also, apart from the theoretical knowledge of astronomy required, the physical object may have been the masterpiece of one particularly gifted craftsman. This would make its reproduction difficult.

Not to say that the Romans did not have several gears based inventions, just, apparently, nothing quite as complex.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2008 :  14:11:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by knkavo

BigPapaSmurf you are the only one to have discovered the link to John Conner... Now I will gather together my fellow evil Starving Ethenopians and bring our evil plans to fruition early, and it's all your fault.

A little info on Spinellis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diomidis_Spinellis

Not being familiar with either computer programming or astronomy, what interests me most about this device is the level of technological sophistication that apparently had been reached at that time. Popular opinion has it that the Greeks used technology mainly for toys and in temples to fool believers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

It is certainly strange that the Romans (who as someone correctly stated in one of their reponses to our friend freewest4ever seemed to be better at making practical engineering applications of their knowledge) didn't expand on these toys and adapt them for industry or war.

A friend of mine studied the cultural history of technology. According to him the main reason that technology was not developed further was that it was never developed with a consumer base in mind. Basically, the rich were the only ones who counted and they got on well enough with slaves and cheap labor. Then there were the masses, but why would anyone want to develop something for them? Similar theories have been developed around the Chinese culture, which was similarly technologically advanced.

It seems that only in Europe, with the rejection of slavery and the decline of cheap labor did machines actually became more than mere amusing toys.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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knkavo
New Member

Greece
11 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2008 :  02:06:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send knkavo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Simon & Tomk80, I think those two answers just about wrap it up for me. Thanks!

'Oh, obvious,' said Granny. 'I'll grant you it is obvious. Trouble is, just because things are obvious doesn't mean they're true.' - Granny Weatherwax

"You have insulted my footwear. My sandals do not like to be laughed at." - Samurai Jack
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2008 :  10:19:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by tomk80
A friend of mine studied the cultural history of technology. According to him the main reason that technology was not developed further was that it was never developed with a consumer base in mind. Basically, the rich were the only ones who counted and they got on well enough with slaves and cheap labor. Then there were the masses, but why would anyone want to develop something for them? Similar theories have been developed around the Chinese culture, which was similarly technologically advanced.

It seems that only in Europe, with the rejection of slavery and the decline of cheap labor did machines actually became more than mere amusing toys.
Coincidentally, PZ just posted a great video of Carl Sagan. In it, he discusses the burning of the Library of Alexandria and the irreparable loss of human knowledge that followed. He says that one of the reasons for this tragedy was that the Library was an "Ivory Tower"--a bastion only for the elite--whose value was not apparent to the masses who destroyed it.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/13/2008 10:19:42
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2008 :  10:40:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Coincidentally, PZ just posted a great video of Carl Sagan. In it, he discusses the burning of the Library of Alexandria and the irreparable loss of human knowledge that followed. He says that one of the reasons for this tragedy was that the Library was an "Ivory Tower"--a bastion only for the elite--whose value was not apparent to the masses who destroyed it.


Actually it was Ceasar who did the most damage to the Library, a side effect of the burning of the ships/docks. It was restocked with the contents of the next biggest library as a gift to Cleopatra. Later circa 700 the Muslims burned the rest because its contents were considered heretical.

Edit:The details are still argued, But im pretty sure anti-elitists had nothing to do with it.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 06/13/2008 10:44:00
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