|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 03/03/2007 : 03:28:44 [Permalink]
|
quote:
I suspect that New Ager's are the most likely to actually vote for a green party candidate even if splitting the greenish democratic vote means a republican win.
No party is perfect. I hear the Repubs and Dems have lots of people that believe that some guy healed people then died and came back to life, passed through some hell, and now lives in a heaven somewhere.
They believe that locking up millions of citizens is a good idea and that that illegal wars are "mistakes" that have to be prolonged in order to be corrected. They believe that poverty-creating programs like NAFTA and the IMF, like bombing people and their homes and infrastructure are gifts from god. They believe that supporting a corrupt system just to vote for the "lesser of two evils" doesn't promote evil. They believe that Nader lost the Dems an election, when they lost it themselves.
Reminds me of the Three Dog Night song, "Mama told me not to come." Best to stay away from parties, I suppose. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
 |
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2007 : 07:01:58 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Gorgo:
Reminds me of the Three Dog Night song, "Mama told me not to come."
Just to pick a nit, “Mama Told Me Not to Come” is a Randy Newman song that Three Dog Night covered.
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2007 : 08:22:26 [Permalink]
|
| Did not know that. It's still a Three Dog Night song. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 03/03/2007 08:23:44 |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2007 : 09:53:37 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Did not know that. It's still a Three Dog Night song.
Technically, it isn't. It is a Three Dog Night hit. But when you say whose song it is, that's usually in reference to the songwriter. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2007 : 13:57:19 [Permalink]
|
"Techically," you're probably technically correct, he owns the song. However, I think it's also proper to say that it is a TDN song as well. quote:
Request your favorite Three Dog Night song from your favorite radio stations. Select your state to view phone numbers and links to websites.
http://www.threedognight.com/request.html
They don't say, request your favorite Hoyt Axton, Randy Newman, Nillson, Watson, Campbell/Woods/Connely songs.
Most of us wouldn't have heard of the song if it weren't for TDN, much as I love Randy Newman. Anyway, thanks for the info. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2007 : 15:00:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
"Techically," you're probably technically correct, he owns the song. However, I think it's also proper to say that it is a TDN song as well. quote:
Request your favorite Three Dog Night song from your favorite radio stations. Select your state to view phone numbers and links to websites.
http://www.threedognight.com/request.html
They don't say, request your favorite Hoyt Axton, Randy Newman, Nillson, Watson, Campbell/Woods/Connely songs.
Most of us wouldn't have heard of the song if it weren't for TDN, much as I love Randy Newman. Anyway, thanks for the info.
Okay, I'll give you that. Perhaps I'm a stickler because I am also a songwriter. Personally, I would only go as far as saying, Three Dog Night's version of…
I now return this thread from my hijacking… 
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2007 : 15:03:42 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Yeah, well, the New Age is aggressively green. So it doesn't surprise me that the Green Party would want to woo the woo woo's, just as Republicans bend over backwards for the religious right.
I suspect that New Ager's are the most likely to actually vote for a green party candidate even if splitting the greenish democratic vote means a republican win.
I'm not so sure the Green Party would be "wooing" the unorthodoxed medicine group as opposed to the unorthodoxed medicine group being part of the base that started the Green Party in the first place.
Some people are trying to reform the Democratic Party into the Progressive Democratic Party and there are a substantial number of people identifying themselves in this way. The established Democratic Party machine is a mess. So far I haven't seen great changes coming from Howard Dean to change that. I hope the changes are occurring but perhaps just not as publicly visible at the moment. Electing Dean as party chair did show the Progressive movement within the party does have a lot of momentum.
The Green Party has some values I can identify with, but the majority of the members are overly idealistic and as you point out by the stand on unorthodoxed medicine, magical thinkers rather than educated rational thinkers. IE a lot of them are idiots.
What seems wrong to me when people choose a party to associate with is they look more to the image the party claims to be for rather than the accomplishments the party has actually achieved. If you forgive my gross oversimplification and error in my perception of these folks, both the Green Party and the Libertarian Party have overall images: power to the people not corporate America, and, less government interference in everything period, respectively. But in practice, those images are very hard to match. Yeah sure we all want power to the people but some people are idiots and some sleazeballs so government regulations are simply necessary in such a population. And yeah sure we all want less government but pure capitalism doesn't result in the "best" of everything as might be believed by those who don't think that concept through to the practice of capitalism in the actual world.
Again forgive my oversimplifying of the world here. The religious right wing elements in this country have combined forces with the rich and powerful whether that is rich and powerful individuals or very large, rich and powerful corporations. Those elements are using each other in what I think is a foolish mistake on both their parts.
Corruption levels are very high right now. That's what happens when the power of money overwhelms other influences on governments. The influence of particular morality beliefs on legislation is also disgustingly high at the moment. We are in a war some people think God wants and others saw dollar signs in. And for those that weren't necessarily visioning Armageddon, they did vote for Bush whom they heard Evangelical language coming from and there was a drive in some big Evangelical congregations to turn voters out in support of the anti-gay and anti-abortion candidate. There's no question the Republican Party leadership exploited this fact. What is in question is how many of those leaders believe the same Evangelical things and how many were just taking advantage of the situation.
Both right wing Evangelicals and the self centered among the upper classes are going to be sorry if the world they wish for spins out of control which it looks like might be a real possibility. Obviously an economic depression resulting from over-extending all the war spending or a major world war are not what the rich and corporate powers are hoping for.
And, the people who would love to see a Ch |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/03/2007 15:05:50 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2007 : 17:21:13 [Permalink]
|
quote:
I now return this thread from my hijacking…
I know what you're saying though, I've noticed that the American Idol contestants often identify the song with the artist that they identify with the song rather than the writers or even the "original artist." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2007 : 21:57:08 [Permalink]
|
beskeptigal said:
quote:
The Green Party has some values I can identify with, but the majority of the members are overly idealistic and as you point out by the stand on unorthodoxed medicine, magical thinkers rather than educated rational thinkers. IE a lot of them are idiots.
There you go again, making rash claims about a political party based on what a few people in that party think.
Here are 10 major values of the US Green Party:
quote:
http://www.gp.org/tenkey.shtml
Just because there is a statement most of us find silly in their platform in no way makes "a lot of them idiots".
WTF is up with the political bigotry anyway?
Should I start calling democrats idiots because some of you are stupid anough to think that guns are evil and should be entirely illegal?
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2007 : 00:26:25 [Permalink]
|
I stated in my post that I was overgeneralizing, Dude. I was trying to discuss some larger issues without getting bogged down in political correctness.
A lot of Democrats are idiots, that doesn't hurt my feelings at all. I don't have a personal stake in party identity.
But I'll try to be more careful about my insults in the future. I was referring to the people in the Green Party who are believers in extreme conspiracies about government and corporate powers. They don't trust the mainstream and my observation is a lot of them adopted the Green Party.
That doesn't mean there aren't intelligent people trying to form a viable third party via the Green Party. If they can do it, more power to them. If they have good candidates, I'll be voting for them. But I happen to think it is wishful thinking given the current political state of affairs.
Do you have anything that describes the Green Party members which shows the majority are not from the woo rank and file? I'd be more than happy to reconsider the conclusions I've drawn from my limited experience with the members.
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2007 : 09:16:51 [Permalink]
|
quote:
A lot of Democrats are idiots, that doesn't hurt my feelings at all. I don't have a personal stake in party identity.
But I'll try to be more careful about my insults in the future. I was referring to the people in the Green Party who are believers in extreme conspiracies about government and corporate powers. They don't trust the mainstream and my observation is a lot of them adopted the Green Party.
That doesn't mean there aren't intelligent people trying to form a viable third party via the Green Party.
The idea that people who believe in woo woo and that people who believe in conspiracy theories are idiots is one I have to take issue with. "Idiot" is a term which expresses your mental state and has nothing to do with them. Most of these people are very intelligent, upstanding, hard-working caring people.
On a side note, I've found a lot of the people into "woo-woo" avoid politics because they think that focusing on things makes them worse. That is, if you're anti-war, you're creating war. If you're anti-poverty, you're creating poverty.
I am not pleased with these mind sets, either, but I don't think it's contructive to assume that the people you disagree with are stupid. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2007 : 09:42:04 [Permalink]
|
beskeptigal said:
quote:
Do you have anything that describes the Green Party members which shows the majority are not from the woo rank and file? I'd be more than happy to reconsider the conclusions I've drawn from my limited experience with the members.
I guess your political bigotry blinded you to the link I posted? Well, here it is again:
http://www.gp.org/tenkey.shtml
Here is the whole list, in case you are unable/unwilling to click the link and read it.
(don't think this should be a copyright problem, being political propoganda I'm sure they won't care how many times it gets reproduced)
quote:
1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.
2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.
3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature. We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society which utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must practice agriculture which replenishes the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems.
4. NON-VIOLENCE
It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to society's current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.
5. DECENTRALIZATION
Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.
6. COMMUNITY-BASED ECONOMICS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE
We recognize it is essential to create a vibrant and sustainable economic system, one that can create jobs and provide a decent standard of living for all people while maintaining a healthy ecological balance. A successful economic system will offer meaningful work with dignity, while paying a “living wage” which reflects the real value of a person's work.
Local communities must look to economic development that assures protection of the environment an |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2007 : 09:48:05 [Permalink]
|
Oh, and:
What eveidence do you have that the "majority" of the green party are "woo woos"?
You are the one making that claim, and I'm calling bullshit on it. You don't get to use more neocon/creationist tactics by challenging me to prove you wrong!
You made the claim, now lets see the evidence. Put up, or retract your bullshit claim.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 15:01:23 [Permalink]
|
Still waiting....
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 00:52:46 [Permalink]
|
Cmon.. if you are confident enough to throw that kind of claim out, then certainly you have some evidence to support it?
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Party, Party, Party!
