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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2007 : 21:32:29 [Permalink]
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Would any gasses produced by sea-life permeate the ice anyway?
And Dude most vent microbes discovered get energy by breaking down H2S and they use this energy and oxygen to convert CO2 to sugars thusly.
CO2+O2+4{H2S}#8594;CH2O+4{S}+3{H2O}
I'll concede the point that basic life does not require oxygen however. I do not see how this stengthens any case for life on Europa, you still need to make an origins theory fit there. So far we canonly speculate |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 08/07/2007 : 11:09:31 [Permalink]
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Something interesting:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20147780/
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 12:06:46 [Permalink]
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| Sorry, thats not enough for me, bacteria were around for 2 billion years prior to that fossil, plenty of time for them to move into every nook and cranny. All it shows is an early extremophile, which is great in itself. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/07/2007 : 12:07:28 [Permalink]
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Interesting indeed. I've long favored the deep sea, hydrothermal vents as the "warm little pond(s)" that, perhaps, cradled Earth's first, recognizable life.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 17:31:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Would any gasses produced by sea-life permeate the ice anyway?
And Dude most vent microbes discovered get energy by breaking down H2S and they use this energy and oxygen to convert CO2 to sugars thusly.
CO2+O2+4{H2S}#8594;CH2O+4{S}+3{H2O}
I'll concede the point that basic life does not require oxygen however. I do not see how this stengthens any case for life on Europa, you still need to make an origins theory fit there. So far we canonly speculate
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"We can only speculate," or we can go out and look. Science has always preferred objective evidence over speculation.
That's why sending probes to explore the extraterrestrial places likeliest in the solar system to harbor life would be in the very best tradition of science.
I would think that finding extraterrestrial life would be among the greatest scientific discoveries ever. Arguably the very greatest. On the other hand, if we found the entire solar system, exclusive of earth, to be sterile, this would also have great scientific importance, though it would also be a huge buzz-kill for many of us.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/07/2007 17:32:41 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 20:09:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Would any gasses produced by sea-life permeate the ice anyway?
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Why shouldn't it? We know of several molecules that can diffuse into crystals... Ice isn't as solid as metal, or stone/rock for that matter. And since there is plenty of geological activity on Europa, including tidal forces, there should be plenty of cracks in the ice where oxygen can leak out into the atmosphere. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 08:39:53 [Permalink]
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well considering estimates at the ice-sheet's thickness vary from 3km to 100km I think this is another matter totally up in the air. Another reason we know way too little to making bold statements abou how life is probable.
also I agree with BigPapaSmurf, certain extremophile bactaria may be some of the oldest on Earth but that doesn't necessarilly indicate that life originated in that environment. It's more likely life arose near the surface and spread to areas which were protected from steralizing events such as impacts. I don't buy the deep hot hypothesis sorry, this top down approach also doesnt accomplish much. |
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 08/08/2007 08:50:57 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 11:15:31 [Permalink]
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"We can only speculate," or we can go out and look. Science has always preferred objective evidence over speculation.
That's why sending probes to explore the extraterrestrial places likeliest in the solar system to harbor life would be in the very best tradition of science.
I would think that finding extraterrestrial life would be among the greatest scientific discoveries ever. Arguably the very greatest. On the other hand, if we found the entire solar system, exclusive of earth, to be sterile, this would also have great scientific importance, though it would also be a huge buzz-kill for many of us. |
Too bad Bush's 'send a man to Mars' project has ruined to space program. It would have been nice to send a few super-probes there.
| also I agree with BigPapaSmurf, certain extremophile bactaria may be some of the oldest on Earth but that doesn't necessarilly indicate that life originated in that environment. It's more likely life arose near the surface and spread to areas which were protected from steralizing events such as impacts. I don't buy the deep hot hypothesis sorry, this top down approach also doesnt accomplish much. |
Hey dont drag me down with you, Im not supporting your position. All I was saying is that the data in the article linked is only a marginal support of the 'abiogenisis near vents hypothsis'.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 14:15:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
"We can only speculate," or we can go out and look. Science has always preferred objective evidence over speculation.
That's why sending probes to explore the extraterrestrial places likeliest in the solar system to harbor life would be in the very best tradition of science.
I would think that finding extraterrestrial life would be among the greatest scientific discoveries ever. Arguably the very greatest. On the other hand, if we found the entire solar system, exclusive of earth, to be sterile, this would also have great scientific importance, though it would also be a huge buzz-kill for many of us. |
Too bad Bush's 'send a man to Mars' project has ruined to space program. It would have been nice to send a few super-probes there. |
Right! We don't need a 60's and 70's era "Space Race" again. That was politically driven. I suspect little was learned about the Moon by Apollo that could not have been learned via probes, but the Moon landings were a political demonstration of American supremacy. Once the political goals of Apollo were reached, the program was dropped without follow-up. The fact that nobody's been to an extraterrestrial body since the 1970's says volumes. I find it fascinating that we went to the Moon in 1969, but we could not go there today.
We need science-driven space program. Robot probes where they are appropriate, manned missions where they are appropriate.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/08/2007 14:18:00 |
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Life on Mars/Europa (elsewhere in solar system)
