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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 08:49:16 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote more than once: quote:
Makes you wonder how much they believe their own story when they make no sacrifice of their own for the cause?
No sacrifice? All of these people have made at least some sacrifices, even if it is merely making the effort to recycle. What you mean is that they have not - according to you - sacrificed enough.
George Washington believed slavery was wrong. But he kept slaves anyway because if he hadn't that would have been a huge blow to himself financially. His compromise was to free his slaves after his death through his will.
Thomas Jefferson believed that all men were created equal and deserved all the rights he wrote about in the Declaration of Independence. He wrote against slavery. But he held slaves.
Neither of these men were perfect in matching their ideals with their lifestyles. The sacrifices they would have had to make to live like saints in their own eyes were too great for them to stand. We can criticize them for that, but we can also praise them for the efforts they did make. They can be both great historical figures, and fallible human being in our eyes.
None of us are perfect, Bill. We can strive toward our ideals, we can improve ourselves, usually slowly, through great effort and practice over time. But we will never be divine. So your argument that Al Gore or any other proponent of policies to fight global warming might not really believe in those ideas just because they don't adhere to the ideals perfectly in their own lives falls flat. George Washington may have kept slaves in his lifetime - which was wrong - but he also freed his slaves. Thomas Jefferson may have owned slaves, and that was wrong, but he also helped end slavery. Regardless, both men truly believed in the ideals of freedom. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 04/07/2007 : 12:42:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott...
Travel is a luxury we can no longer enjoy for the sake of the planet.
Another quote bound to become a classic. 
In science, you are obligated to show your theory works. — Michael Mozina
If you intend to present a theory that nobody has ever heard of before, you'll have to be prepared to answers some questions about it. — Michael Mozina
Travel is a luxury we can no longer enjoy for the sake of the planet. I know this may be an inconvenient truth for you, but no one said this was going to be easy and without personal sacrifice. — Bill scott
GeeMack, you are the true master of quote-mining. What a great eye! I'd have missed those wonderful quotes, had you not separated them from the tailings. But I fear that the Discovery Institute may want to steal you away from us.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 21:04:51 [Permalink]
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Keep dumping on John Travolta, Bill. That part was cool.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 02:28:59 [Permalink]
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The false dichotomy of Bill
Either A. manmade global warming is not real and we should continue using fossil fuels in an inefficient manner or B. manmade global warming is real and we should stop traveling completely. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
| Edited by - Ghost_Skeptic on 04/08/2007 09:03:08 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 02:41:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Another quote bound to become a classic.
Travel is a luxury we can no longer enjoy for the sake of the planet. I know this may be an inconvenient truth for you, but no one said this was going to be easy and without personal sacrifice. — Bill scott
As much as I would like to take credit I was just paraphrasing Al.
Quotes from Gee Mac bound to become classics:
Quotes from Gee Mac that anyone remembers:
Quotes from Gee Mac that anyone cared about:
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 02:46:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Hey Bill, you don't get to wave away the science with your strawman. Call everyone who understands the science about the sudden increase in global temperatures (over the last 150 year, but speeding up at an alarming rate to levels unseen before in the natural cycles) hypocrites. That does not erase the science that you seem to have a problem with.
I noticed that you jumped over the sources I provided. Nice…
We will get back to that in a minute.
quote:
Your current argument begs the question. Personal attacks on me or Al Gore will not erase erase the data that points to humans as being the largest contributor to our current global warming situation.
Attacks, accusations, they are just words. Besides, neither of you practice what you preach, so you should be ready to be “attacked.”
quote:
And Bill, we are creatures of habit. I didn't give flying in a privet plane to Los Vegas a second thought with regard to global warming.
What? This MMGW issue is not fresh off the AP. Why would you, a MMGW pusher, not even give flying a private plane to LV a thought in regards to MMGW only one short year ago? I think you did not want to give it a thought because you now had the means to travel with amazing speed and luxuries and to deny that would have required personal sacrifice. You decided for the here and now, rather then for the very cause you push and making the green chose. You did the same as those you condemn.
quote:
(Though I have in many other areas of my life, which you know nothing about.)
Please share. I ask this for the second time.
quote:
You are correct. We need to rethink much of what we do and much of what we allow on every level, including our personal choices
Your just now coming to this conclusion, this not a new topic, Kil. The MMGW pushers have been preaching this doomsday prophetic message for some time now. See here is the problem, you seek to convert the infidels and the unbelievers yet you and MMGW's most public supporters do not practice what they/you preach. For example I gave this forum a chance to share all their stories of personal sacrifice and examples that would show they really believe the stories that they preach and here was all I got:
Gorgo: I don't do a damn thing about global warming except do what I can to increase it
HM: I ride a moped 6 miles to the store and I turn my heater off in the winter, weather permitting.
Marf: I would like to sacrifice for the cause but that would require, well, sacrifice.
Kil: (And this one is so amazing I am not even going to paraphrase.) When given the means to fly private to LV Kil says, and I quote: “I didn't give flying in a privet plane to Los Vegas a second thought with regard to global warming.”
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 04/08/2007 02:50:03 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 03:07:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
quote:
I currently live in a small house in the city
Of course that's a retarded thing to say because people without health insurance end up being a greater burden on the economy because they wait until they are really sick and go the emergency room, thus spending way more money than they would have had they had health insurance and regular health care. You are talking about things that you know jack shit about.
Again, Marf, what is the point of having a small house and health insurance or an emergency room if the planet you live on is soon to be inhabitable? Give up the car, marf, and show all that you really care and that you really believe this message, and not just in words but in action as well.
quote:
Sacrifice does not have to be so extreme
In other words, why does sacrifice really require real sacrifice. Can't you sacrifice without the sacrifice?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 04/08/2007 03:12:48 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 03:17:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Do you really expect the unbelievers to take you seriously?
No. I expect you to answer the question. Just because I turn my furnace up to 90, and my air conditioner down to 40 at the same time while all 49 of us that live in this house take 50 cars to the same locations, does that mean that there is no human-caused global warming? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/08/2007 03:18:08 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/08/2007 : 03:22:04 [Permalink]
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Hey, you forgot me... But then, much of my sacrifice comes from my disability and financial situation, so it doesn't count, maybe? If it'll help, I haven't been on a commercial aircraft since 1967 and have no intention of ever getting on another of the wretched things.
Actually Bill, I first heard, and began thinking about it, in the early '70s. There was some long-term research on shallow water fishes that showed species preferring higher temperatures were gradually replacing others that liked cooler. Doesn't sound like much, does it -- one bucket of sand does not a dune make. But since then, the evidence has, forgive the comparison, piled up into Sahara proportions.
But I become confused. What are we talking about here? Global warming or profligate over-use of waning resources by individuals? If the former, we all seem to be singing in the same key. If the latter, then I must ask: What have you, Bill, done to contribute to the solution of the former?
Edit: It just occured to me: How much air conditioning does everyone use in, say, mid-August? I never use it if a fan will do. I don't consider it healthy. Indeed, the store that runs low summertime temperatures, like our local Wal-Mart (69 degrees; I've checked it out), will quickly lose my custom.
I wonder what percentages of total power use AC represents...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/08/2007 04:08:46 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 07:52:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bill Scott:
Do you really expect the unbelievers to take you seriously?
Well, if you're any example Bill, no. I expect them to ignore the science and rely on personal attacks, which beg the question.
I expect them to rely on smoke and mirrors in an attempt to reframe the debate.
I expect them to compare the people who can least afford to make truly significant changes to those companies that make the products that could be much more energy efficient, and affordable, as though their problems are comparable, as justification for giving heavy CO2 polluters, and governments that protect them by having the least strict policies on pollution a pass.
I expect them to tell me that I shouldn't drive to work in my (as energy efficient a vehicle I could find) truck, and give a pass to the manufacturing end of said truck as though the sacrifice for change (retooling) is comparable. Smoke and mirrors…
(And, now that I have mentioned that I drive a truck, I expect to be attacked for that even though I provide an essential service and there is no other vehicle appropriate for what I do.)
And:
I expect them to dig up one or two scientists who don't agree with the data or the interpretation of the data by the consensus of the world's scientific experts on climate.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 09:41:50 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote: quote:
Again, Marf, what is the point of having a small house and health insurance or an emergency room if the planet you live on is soon to be inhabitable? Give up the car, marf, and show all that you really care and that you really believe this message, and not just in words but in action as well.
This is a moronic statement. If I were to give up my car and house - hell, why not just shoot myself in the head; then I'd not be using ANY energy - that wouldn't reverse global warming.
My goal is for the whole of society to make some practical and efficient changes to reverse the effects of global warming. My goal is not to prove to you that I believe that global warming is real.
quote:
In other words, why does sacrifice really require real sacrifice. Can't you sacrifice without the sacrifice?
So to you "sacrifice" doesn't mean what the dictionary says it means (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sacrifice), but rather, sacrifice means only giving up something which will cause significant damage to one's life. Got it.
Bill, who the hell are you arguing with? Who the hell here has said that the solution to global warming is everybody making extreme sacrifices? Al Gore doesn't even advocate that. Most activists who are working to reverse global warming are proposing a combination of efforts in which sacrifice is actually a minor player. Most are proposing some basic structural changes to how American society is run. These changes proposed would not reduce peoples' quality of life.
In short, Bill, your whole debate with me is nothing but a strawman - you're debating with your imaginary friend who happens to also be named marf. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/08/2007 09:43:24 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 09:52:18 [Permalink]
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Kil wrote: quote:
(And, now that I have mentioned that I drive a truck, I expect to be attacked for that even though I provide an essential service and there is no other vehicle appropriate for what I do.)
Well of course! You should quit whatever it is you do now, live in a cardboard box, and work at Walmart. You would if you really believed that global warming was real! Edited to add: Because if everyone who believes in global warming goes broke, homeless, sick, or dies, that will help reverse global warming, right?
Excellent post, BTW. Ghost Skeptic's false dichotomy of Bill also gets right to the heart of this silly debate: quote:
Either A. manmade global warming is not real and we should continue using fossil fuels in an inefficient manner or B. manmade global warming is real and we should stop traveling completely.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/08/2007 09:53:08 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 15:37:12 [Permalink]
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As Marf and others have essentially pointed out, Bill, you have created a whole haystack of strawmen and given them our names. The very fact that it is damn nigh impossible for individuals to accomplish the massive changes required to (hopefully) reverse MMGW seems to escape you. The fact that none of us said individuals can accomplish this seems to escape you. The fact that most of us have argued that any remedial efforts have to be done on a large societal basis escapes you. Instead. you just put your fingers in your ears and keep chanting, "Hypocrites, hypocrites, I can't hear you!"
Bill if you now accept MMGW as fact, and think action should be taken, say so clearly. If you still deny MMGW, then provide evidence that something else other than human activity has produced the worldwide increase in CO2 that so perfectly matches the warming of the planet. Then stop blaming people for not doing enough as individuals. If you can't produce such evidence, shut up.
Since you have been so tricksy in this debate, talking out of both sides of your mouth to us "hypocrites," for now I am going to have choose one of your contradictory positions, and try to reason with you about what is wrong with it. For this purpose, I'm choosing your position that MMGW is real, and we as individuals are hypocrites for not fixing it by sacrificing our livelihoods.
The key concept here, I think, the very principle that explains why as individuals (and even as separate nations) we are unable to change our behavior in the face of MMGW, is something called "the tragedy of the commons." Please read this, Bill. It is a very enlightening concept, and goes toward explaining why individual efforts, like my own (which you mocked), are essentially useless.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/08/2007 16:38:06 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 21:17:30 [Permalink]
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I post this not to try and convince bill of anything, but more to give those who may not know an idea of things they can do to decrease their carbon footprint, things that would add up bigtime if adopted on a wide scale by any significant portion of the population, and have very little impact on your lifestyle. But really billy, do you honestly think people need to crimp their lifestyle to curb energy use? I'd say you are just simply mistaken, but we all know you are deliberately decietful in your posts to these forums.
So, take these steps if you want to reduce your personal carbon footprint by a significant ammount.
1. Get rid of all your incandescent lightbulbs and replace them with compact florescent bulbs. They are more expensive to buy, but they are far more efficient in their use of energy and they last as long as 10 incandescent bulbs, so they are actually cheaper in the long run, by far. I have compact florescent bulbs that are over 7 years old, and still running. In the last 7 years I think I have replaced only 2. There is no reason not to make the switch, except for some odd sized bulbs that you might not be able to find compact florescent equivilents. LED bulbs are also a good alternative, but are not as widely available as the compact florescent are.
2. Get your local power company to do an energy audit on your home, most offer this as a free service. Make sure your windows are all sealed and your house is adequately insulated, and so on.
3. Change the air filters in your home (air conditioning/heater) every three months at a minimum. Helps the appliance run more efficiently.
4. When you need to replace a home appliance (of any kind) do some research and buy the most energy efficient appliance you can that will meet your needs.
5. When you need a new car buy a hybrid or an E85 vehicle, or something with better fuel economy.
6. Write to your state and federal legislators and ask them to sponsor legislation that will support the developement of renewable energy like wind, solar power, and cellulosic ethanol. Wind alone can meet all our energy demands if the infrastructure were in place. The ammount of solar energy that hits our planet in a single hour is greater than all the energy used by all humans in a year. We need to develope and exploit these sources.
7. Turn your stuff off (lights, etc) when not using it. Unplug (or set up a wall switch to control power to the outlets) your electronic devices when not in use. Idle power use of your tv, vcr, computers, etc... consumes a good bit of energy.
8. If there is a competetive market for electricity in your state, you can look for a provider that only uses green sources to generate power.http://www.eere.energy.gov/greenpower/buying/index.shtml This one is huge if you have the option available to you.
And those are the things I can think of off the top of my head. If you do all of them, you can significantly reduce the ammount of CO2 that you contribute to the air. And there are many many more things you can do if you are really into it.
None of these things are really a sacrifice, none of them alter your lifestyle in any noticable way, and they are things everyone can do.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2007 : 04:05:43 [Permalink]
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Well said, Dude....
I've been using those little flourescent bulbs ever since they first became available and nothing else, not even in the ice box. They are cheap to run, give off a much less harsh light, and little of their enegry is wasted in heat. I doubt if I'll ever again use anything else.
You are correct; it is easy to go green(ish, at least). But unfortunatly, to make the big changes will require the political will to do. Currently there are damned few polititions willing to try and put those infrastructure in place. However, when the
Big Sweat arrives, they will solve the problem by the usual blame-shuffling, SOP. By then, will it be too late?
I rather suspect so....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Political hacks water down global warming report
