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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2007 :  14:48:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for making this little drop-in-the-bucket news item interesting, Bill. Actually, some of us do what we can to reduce MMGW. For instance, I didn't use my house furnace all winter (though the very warm weather helped!).

My primary transportation is via Al Gore's Internet. My secondary means of transportation is an electric scooter:


My bike gets me the six miles to town and back (riding on the shoulder of Highway 1 at a maximum of 15 mph) for about one cent's worth of electricity. And it's fun to ride. Truly, though, I don't much blame people for carrying on as they have in the past, as an individual response is probably ineffective for practical purposes in combating MMGW. I could not have commuted from here to Hayward for my old job with my Expresso S, for instance.

That's precisely why major political, technological, and economic changes are needed to promote more earth-friendly living. IMO, we need to promote development of efficient battery technology, and non-burning electrical generation. The changes that are required won't be made by individuals alone. And they certainly won't be made by MMGW deniers or MMGW liars.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/06/2007 14:50:30
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2007 :  15:40:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You are an imbecile, Bill, if you think that just because your little plot on the globe is cooler than usual this week, than global warming isn't real.

Warming is measured by global average tepmeratures.

It is an interesting observation of your self centered conciet that you think the world isn't warming just because your backyard is a degree cooler than expected.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2007 :  17:06:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Me:
The rise in CO2 in the atmosphere has been rising steadily since the beginning of the industrial revolution, at rates unseen before, and to a much higher level then the normal warming and cooling cycles of the past. This is a fact. Core samples of ice have shown both the cycles and the abrupt rise in the level of CO2 over the last 150 years.

quote:
Bill Scott:
Your source please.

Source 1.

How do we know that recent CO2 increases are due to human activities? From RealClimate Climate science from climate scientists:
quote:

In addition to the data from tree rings, there are also of measurements of the 13C/12C ratio in the CO2 trapped in ice cores. The tree ring and ice core data both show that the total change in the 13C/12C ratio of the atmosphere since 1850 is about 0.15%. This sounds very small but is actually very large relative to natural variability. The results show that the full glacial-to-interglacial change in 13C/12C of the atmosphere -- which took many thousand years -- was about 0.03%, or about 5 times less than that observed in the last 150 years.


Source 2. Is a list of information and references on global warming:


THE PHOTOGRAPHIC DOCUMENTATION OF CLIMATE CHANGE


Pay special attention to this one:


Global Tempurature Record

quote:
The time series shows the combined global land and marine surface temperature record from 1850 to 2006. The year 2006 was sixth warmest on record, exceeded by 1998, 2005, 2003, 2002 and 2004. This time series is being compiled jointly by the Climatic Research Unit and the UK Met. Office Hadley Centre. The record is being continually up-dated and improved (see Brohan et al., 2006). This paper includes a new and more thorough assessment of errors, recognizing that these differ on annual and decadal timescales. Increased concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere due to human activities are most likely the underlying cause of warming in the 20th century.


Source 3.

Paleoclimatic Data for the Last 2000 Years

Note that this is a government site. You know… The one that has tried to deny man made global warming…

quote:

Although each of the proxy temperature records shown below is different, due in part to the diverse statistical methods utilized and sources of the proxy data, they all indicate similar patterns of temperature variability over the last 500 to 2000 years. Most striking is the fact that each record reveals a steep increase in the rate or spatial extent of warming since the mid-19th to early 20th centuries. When compared to the most recent decades of the instrumental record, they indicate the temperatures of the most recent decades are the warmest in the entire record. In addition, warmer than average temperatures are more widespread over the Northern Hemisphere in the 20th century than in any previous time.

The similarity of characteristics among the different paleoclimatic reconstructions provides confidence in the following important conclusions:

* Dramatic warming has occurred since the 19th century.
* The recent record warm temperatures in the last 15 years are indeed the warmest temperatures the Earth has seen in at least the last 1000 years, and possibly in the last 2000 years.



I could easily get more sources. Would you like me to do that Bill?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2007 :  17:15:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bill, you can't just point that things which people use which contribute to global warming and then say "See, they are hypocrits." That is to simplify the situation to a point of absurdity. Instead you have to look at the specifics. First, is the use of jets, cars, and energy excessive, and second, is there a viable alternative.

For instance, I'm sad to say that I drive a car that I put between 200 and 250 miles on a week. But I'm not excessive about it because the places I'm driving are 95% work and to obtain necessities such as groceries. I'd be thrilled if I could get a job down the street from where I live, or even just in the same city that I live in. But I've looked hard for such jobs and haven't found one yet. When I do, I will take it and reduce my driving.

Also, there is no viable alternative for the driving I do. I bike and walk to things that I can when weather allows, and take public transit when it is possible. But my city offers very poor public transit services, and there is no train to the job I must commute to. My only other option would be to give up my career or move to another city (which would require my husband quitting his secure job with good health insurance benefits).

Most of what someone like me can do for global warming is live simply and within my own means (which I do), educate myself, and advocate social policies which would fight global warming (which I also do).

You make it sound like if someone isn't sacrificing anything and everything in their life to prevent global warming, then they are a hypocrite if they support social and political policies which would reduce carbon emissions. Sorry, Bill, but issues such as these need more than a 2nd grade analysis.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 04/06/2007 17:17:44
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2007 :  20:28:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

Bill, you can't just point that things which people use which contribute to global warming and then say "See, they are hypocrits." That is to simplify the situation to a point of absurdity. Instead you have to look at the specifics. First, is the use of jets, cars, and energy excessive, and second, is there a viable alternative.

For instance, I'm sad to say that I drive a car that I put between 200 and 250 miles on a week. But I'm not excessive about it because the places I'm driving are 95% work and to obtain necessities such as groceries. I'd be thrilled if I could get a job down the street from where I live, or even just in the same city that I live in. But I've looked hard for such jobs and haven't found one yet. When I do, I will take it and reduce my driving.

Also, there is no viable alternative for the driving I do. I bike and walk to things that I can when weather allows, and take public transit when it is possible. But my city offers very poor public transit services, and there is no train to the job I must commute to. My only other option would be to give up my career or move to another city (which would require my husband quitting his secure job with good health insurance benefits).

Most of what someone like me can do for global warming is live simply and within my own means (which I do), educate myself, and advocate social policies which would fight global warming (which I also do).

You make it sound like if someone isn't sacrificing anything and everything in their life to prevent global warming, then they are a hypocrite if they support social and political policies which would reduce carbon emissions. Sorry, Bill, but issues such as these need more than a 2nd grade analysis.

Well stated, Marf. Individuals can do some to reduce CO2 emissions, but not nearly enough.

Bill, even if the vast majority of experts in the field are totally wrong, yet are able to induce us to reduce the burning of fossil fuels, what harm would be done by such a hypothetical mistake?

Very little, I would say. Also, any inconveniences caused by an over-reaction would have to be counter-balanced by the fact that the air would be healthier to breathe, and we'd be rationing limited fossil fuel resources for future use.

On the other hand, if science is right about MMGW, not doing anything about it would just be contributing to the coming disaster.

Just a few months months ago, Bill, you MMGW deniers claimed the earth wasn't even heating up. Now they (and you) have retreated to a position (hoping nobody would notice the retreat) that simply denies humans are responsible. When it also soon becomes impossible to argue that position, what's the next fall-back position of the Rear Guard of petrofundamentalism? Claiming that MMGW is good?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9668 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  02:34:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Seen over in, I believe Sweden, where a local district was going to put a tax on BBQ for the green house gasses that that recreation produces. Anybody caught BBQ'ing who had not paid into the tax was would be fined. They were going to use a helicopter to look for illegal grillers. This MMGW is a very bad hoax and these propagandists should be ashamed of themselves.

I believe Bill scott is a victim of an April Fool's joke.

I don't know that it was an April Fool's joke, but I seriously believe it was, because though the idea is stupid enough to be believed by global warming denies... Even politicians in Sweden are smarter than that.
An idiotic stunt like that would not have gone unnoticed in the Swedish press, and I've heard nothing about it.

Bill scott, where have your critical thinking skills gone?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9668 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  02:40:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by filthy
References please...

I heard it on the radio so take it with a grain of salt if you choose.

You yourself seemed to believe it is true, so why don't you take your own advice?

Besides, most grilling is Sweden is done on firewood or charcoal, both which have no net increase of CO2.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  04:19:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pleco




quote:
Specifically, if you take the # of people on the flight and divide out the release so we have a per/person amount, then calculate the amount that would be released from each person driving a typical car the same distance.


Why would each person need a car? If four flew to LV in a private plane then all four could have just as easy taken a prius (well maybe not as easy, but that is the sacrifice that Al is speaking of) and done a favor to the planet with their little sacrifice. But they chose the fun way to get LV, yes it burned a heck of lot more fossil fuel then a prius would have, but getting to Vegas in that time frame is worth it. In other words let everyone sacrifice for the global war on GW, but if I have the means I am going in comfort baby. No different then when all these celebs and politicians who lecture on personal sacrifice in the global war on global warming. They are with us, just as long as this does not require them to make a sacrifice as well. “That is left up to anybody but me.” You see, everyone wants someone else to make the sacrifices, nobody, I should say most, are not willing to give up personal comforts as a sacrifice, this includes many of the MMGW pushers themselves. Makes you wonder how much they believe their own story when they make no sacrifice of their own for the cause?









quote:
Perhaps someone could provide how much would be saved/lost if everyone who drove a distance over 300 miles took a flight instead in a calendar year.


Why is everyone driving 300 miles? Are they not supposed to be car pooling? How much CO2 would have not been spent had all four rode on a Gray hound bus, rather then take a private flight? How much if all four rode in a Prius rather then ride in a private plane? My point being, even the MMGW pushers themselves chose luxury and convince over going green, when they have the means. No different then Al Gore, John Travolta, or John Edwards, who lecture us all on sacrifice and then jump on their private jet to hop scotch the country in heading to the next lecture, or rally, or revival. You see, everyone wants someone else to make the sacrifices, nobody, I should say most, are not willing to give up personal comforts as a sacrifice, this includes many of the MMGW pushers themselves, as deomonstrated on this forum. Makes you wonder how much they believe their own story when they make no sacrifice of their own for the cause? If the planet where truly in trouble then how can they make such selfish chosses?




quote:
I don't know the answer.. if anyone can provide this info I would appreciate it.



The answer is that the cause of MMGW becomes a laughing stock and a mockery when many of it's most public supporters ride around in private jets and live in mansions, all while preaching personal sacrifice to anyone but themselves. The cause is not helped anymore when the many of it's grassroots folks who are pushing for the cause don't make any personal sacrifice, themselves, for the cause. They want those who are skeptical of MMGW to make all the sacrifices while they, who claim to believe this hoax, make none. Good luck with all that.






"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  06:11:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bill, you provided no sources and no data. Your "answers" are non-responsive and speculative.

All I asked for was data, not demagoguery.

quote:
You would save the planet by not going at all. Travel is a luxury we can no longer enjoy for the sake of the planet. I know this may be an inconvenient truth for you, but no one said this was going to be easy and without personal sacrifice. Now step up to the plate and take one for the sake of the planet, if you really care.


You have no idea why I have to go to Orlando. You make an assumption. You are a hypocrite.

Since you can't bring yourself to have any serious discussion, but resort to this type of post, it is obvious that you have no interest in the science of global warming, but just politics and ideology.

Since the policies to combat global warming are anti-corporation and anti-conservative, you have become a denier. You are not a skeptic. You provide no data, no sources, no references to any of your arguments. You attempt to prove your theory by knocking down other theories and by knocking down straw man arguments.

Interestingly, these are exactly the same tactics used by christian fanatics as they attempt to "disprove darwinism". And they work just as well.

Until you start providing data to what I originally asked for, consider my involvement in this discussion suspended.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 04/07/2007 06:14:31
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  06:19:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox




quote:
Bill, you can't just point that things which people use which contribute to global warming and then say "See, they are hypocrits."


I can't?





quote:
That is to simplify the situation to a point of absurdity. Instead you have to look at the specifics. First, is the use of jets, cars, and energy excessive, and second, is there a viable alternative.


Yes, but it requires a sacrifice.



quote:
For instance, I'm sad to say that I drive a car that I put between 200 and 250 miles on a week. But I'm not excessive about it because the places I'm driving are 95% work and to obtain necessities such as groceries. I'd be thrilled if I could get a job down the street from where I live, or even just in the same city that I live in. But I've looked hard for such jobs and haven't found one yet. When I do, I will take it and reduce my driving.

Also, there is no viable alternative for the driving I do. I bike and walk to things that I can when weather allows, and take public transit when it is possible. But my city offers very poor public transit services, and there is no train to the job I must commute to. My only other option would be to give up my career or move to another city (which would require my husband quitting his secure job with good health insurance benefits).



Mark, you have become my poster child. You push the MMGW at the grassroots level and yet you come up with all kinds of reasons and whine that you just can't do anymore. Humbug. You don't want to do anymore because that would interrupt your current standard of living that you are use to. You and your husband could quit your jobs and work at the Wal-Mart down the road and live in a 500 sq ft efficiency apartment. Yes it is not the standards you are used to, but Al said sacrifice will be required. Marf, what good is health insurance if you live on an inhabitable planet?






quote:
Most of what someone like me can do for global warming is live simply and within my own means (which I do),



That's the problem, your means. Your means included driving around in cars, which most on this planet do not have. Yet you want them to continue to not have this mean while you hang on to it because it would require sacrifice from you to give up this luxury, even though you have the means for it. Give up the luxury, Marf, or don't complain when others, who have the means, use theirs.












quote:
educate myself, and advocate social policies which would fight global warming (which I also do).




Then you are the worst of all contributors. You know the trouble that our planet is in and yet you will not give up your car for the luxuries that it gives you. Yet you expect others to give up this luxury. What good is health insurance on a inhabitable planet

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  06:27:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pleco




quote:
You have no idea why I have to go to Orlando. You make an assumption. You are a hypocrite.



Apparently, you consider going to Orlando more important then the future of our planet









quote:
Until you start providing data to what I originally asked for, consider my involvement in this discussion suspended.



Until you provide proof of anything you have done on a sacrificial level to combat MMGW then I am applying my own suspension on you.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  07:12:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott...

Travel is a luxury we can no longer enjoy for the sake of the planet.
Another quote bound to become a classic.
In science, you are obligated to show your theory works. — Michael Mozina

If you intend to present a theory that nobody has ever heard of before, you'll have to be prepared to answers some questions about it. — Michael Mozina

Travel is a luxury we can no longer enjoy for the sake of the planet. I know this may be an inconvenient truth for you, but no one said this was going to be easy and without personal sacrifice. — Bill scott
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  07:44:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Bill, you don't get to wave away the science with your strawman. Call everyone who understands the science about the sudden increase in global temperatures (over the last 150 year, but speeding up at an alarming rate to levels unseen before in the natural cycles) hypocrites. That does not erase the science that you seem to have a problem with.

I noticed that you jumped over the sources I provided. Nice…

Your current argument begs the question. Personal attacks on me or Al Gore will not erase erase the data that points to humans as being the largest contributor to our current global warming situation.

And Bill, we are creatures of habit. I didn't give flying in a privet plane to Los Vegas a second thought with regard to global warming. (Though I have in many other areas of my life, which you know nothing about.) You are correct. We need to rethink much of what we do and much of what we allow on every level, including our personal choices and those choices made by corporations and governments…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  08:35:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote

quote:
Mark, you have become my poster child. You push the MMGW at the grassroots level and yet you come up with all kinds of reasons and whine that you just can't do anymore. Humbug. You don't want to do anymore because that would interrupt your current standard of living that you are use to. You and your husband could quit your jobs and work at the Wal-Mart down the road and live in a 500 sq ft efficiency apartment. Yes it is not the standards you are used to, but Al said sacrifice will be required. Marf, what good is health insurance if you live on an inhabitable planet?


You got a lot of fuckin' nerve. You have no idea the sacrifices we've made to live an alternative lifestyle that balances individual desires with social responsibility. The way I live now is not anything like what I'm used to. I grew up in a big house in the suburbs. I currently live in a small house in the city and live quite humbly. The only problem I have is that one of my jobs requires me to commute 3 days a week, and I am planning to leave that job for one in the city when I get a chance. If I'm your poster child, you apparently haven't met many middle class liberals.

Walmart starts at pay so low that if we worked there we wouldn't even be able to have a 500 sq ft. apartment because what we'd be paying in debt, private health insurance, and food would suck up everything we earn. Oh, wait, you implied that health insurance is a luxury. Of course that's a retarded thing to say because people without health insurance end up being a greater burden on the economy because they wait until they are really sick and go the emergency room, thus spending way more money than they would have had they had health insurance and regular health care. You are talking about things that you know jack shit about.

Turning this discussion into personal attacks on individuals for not living their lifestyle a certain way is absurd. Saying I should live in a tiny apartment, work at Walmart, never go out or use a computer, go without health insurance, and eat nothing but beans and rice is like saying if you think overpopulation is a problem you should commit suicide. Or better yet, go on a massive killing spree and then commit suicide. Sacrifice does not have to be so extreme. How about you Bill? I'm sure you'd agree that there is a great deal of suffering in the world and that it would be good to try to alleviate such suffering. So do you live in poverty so that you can donate all extra income to charity? Or perhaps you devote all your free time to humanitarian work? I guess not all your free time since you spend quite a bit of time on this forum. Who's the hypocrite here? Either you need to be sacrificing every bit of enjoyment you might get out of life, or apparently you think the world is just fine and dandy just the way it is. Right? I mean, I'm only following your logic, Bill.

I also think you don't know anything about how much energy is used up even by poor Americans who walk to work. If I buy groceries, work at Walmart, use any electricity at all, I am contributing more to global warming than someone in the third world. The only way I could make a major difference from what I'm doing now would be if I went and lived in the wilderness and grew all my own food. If I did that, I would be of no use to society in other ways. Global warming isn't the only issue out there, you know. I do other things in my life to help solve other human problems. So grassroots activism while doing a job that helps society and that I'm good at does a hell of a lot more to help humanity than living in a small apartment, walking to Walmart, and hating my life, or worse yet, becoming a hermit in the wilderness. For example, if Philly's public transit system expan

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 04/07/2007 08:40:39
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  08:41:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bill my friend, I'm not sure that you realize just how bad it can/will get although you seem to have accepted that we contribute to the problem.

Most if not all of our crops are climate specific; warming oceans will destroy fisheries, also climate specfic, and the same applies to our meat animals. Add to this the burgeoning, world population and disaster lurks only a short haul down the road.

It is all well and good to point fingers at what appears, and in most cases is, individual excessive use of fuels and resources but to properly address the situation our leaders (gag) must be willing to take partisan politics and sucking up to corporate energy producers out of the equasion. I don't see that happening, at least not in my lifetime. They will have to be forced into it and nobody seems to have the stones to do it.

Want my personal opinion? We're fucked. We're screwed, blued, tattooed, and hung out to dry in the sun. I agree that the world is in a natural warming cycle, one that we are contributing to with our emmissions, and even if we cut those emmissions considerably, it might not be enough to make any difference at all.

Which is not to say that we shouldn't try. Perhaps we can slow it down enough make a difference in the long run, but again, unless international politics comes together in cooperation, even that won't amount to much.

I find myself reminded of lemmings. It is not true that they migrate over the cliffs and into the sea; that was just Disney bullshit. What they do, when resources run short, they migrate in large numbers in all directions and a great many become prey for predators. These predators rely heavily on the lemmings. Snowy owls, for example, only lay large clutches of eggs in seasons when the lemmings are migrating. Take away the rodents, and the owls too, are gone. This is could well be our situation in microcosm.

So Al Gore is flying hither & yon. Al's a busy man and that's the only way he can spread this message in person. I cut him a little slack because that message I agree with entirely and want it spread as far and wide as possible. As for his mansion, I've read that it's pretty efficent, energy wise. Don't know for sure 'cause I've never seen it. It is my understanding that John Edwards' is as well, although I haven't been invited into that one, either -- dunno why.

So what's to do, then? I don't know, but we'd damned well better start doing it soon.





"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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