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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/14/2007 : 21:23:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Which one would you rather cut and paste into your browser? That's the power of TinyURL!
I give this to you, free of charge.
Sorry and thanks. Here is my first tiny
http://tinyurl.com/yux3rf
Hey, that works pretty good! 
And I thank you for the consideration, and apologize for getting angry. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/14/2007 21:25:24 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 04/14/2007 : 23:02:07 [Permalink]
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Billscott said:
quote:
A. CFLs Bulbs. Too be honest, I did not realize that those bulbs had become so affordable. And you point out that the mercury content is not enough for major concern in regards to disposal, so after taking all of that into consideration, I will have to agree with you in the fact that there is no reason we should not be switching over. If for no other reason then for the common American to save on his/her electric bill each month. And I get annoyed changing all those other bulbs. They seem to be always burning out so quick. The longer life span would be a very attractive feature to me as well. So MMGW or not, I can now see a use and a place for the CFL.
B. Non-Industrialized nations becoming industrialized. Too be honest again, I have heard of the growing power consumption of the Chinese, but I have never really looked at the numbers straight in the face like I did when looking up these CFLs. One new coal fired power station every week to ten days, with 544 in the plans as of now! Is it just me or are those some sobering statistics? And I never realized that India was just on their coattails in their rising thirst for power. As technology becomes more and more affordable and proliferates many previously non-industrialized nations will be heading right down the same path as the China's and the India's of today. Now while I may remain skeptical of MMGW, I do not deny such things as air pollution, acid rain, mercury pollution etc…, nor do I take them lightly. With China pumping out that much $investment$ in their coal fired power plants how serious can they be about researching and pursuing alternative means? The more I think about this the prospects are chilling.
C. Now for even more of a dilemma. How can we here the US condemn, or try to deny, this advancement and all the luxuries that it brings (affordable power), to other nations when we have enjoyed affordable power, in relation to the rest of the world, and the luxuries that go with it virtually our whole lives?
Just had to pinch myself.
Ok Bill, you have finally created an entire post here on these forums that expresses a reasonable opinion with no argumentative fallacies involved and no apparent intent to deceive or spread misinformation.
Honestly, I didn't think you had it in you, so I have to apologize for misjudging you.
As for the Hg content in CFLs, we should still take the steps to dispose of them properly. The package of most CFLs has info on where they should be taken, or a website to help find that info locally.
Countries who are expanding their power grids, like China and India, are using coal plants because they are the cheapest to build per watt of output. But China is also investing in massive offshore wind turbine farms. These countries have a demand for power, and we can blame ourselves (partially) for the type of power they are choosing.
If we had a more robust alternate energy research program running for the last 40 years, we may have already found more environmentally friendly and cost effective ways to generate power. Think about the cost of the Iraq war. Think what our state of alternate energy generation might be if we had spent that much money (think we are up to $450Billion) in energy research over the last 40 years.
There is enough surface wind to meet the entire world's energy demands, but the infrastructure is more costly than coal power. High level winds using flown wind turbines could power us, and meet our increasing demands, for the next century. Same problem though, high initial cost and infrastructure lag.
Enough solar energy reaches the earth in an hour to power all human activity for a year (think I am remembering that one right). We still need to increase our ability to capture |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 04/14/2007 23:06:01 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 04:23:43 [Permalink]
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Dude asked Bill:quote:
Help me out here Bill, what is the conservative take on that one?
I'm going to make a prediction myself that the "answer" will be another unresponsive, subject-changing morality play, with plenty of strawmen in the cast. I wish Bill would prove me wrong.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/15/2007 04:25:59 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 12:11:32 [Permalink]
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I know his history here doesn't say much, but his most recent post in this thread wasn't done in his usual format.
Maybe he can, afterall, think for himself, even if just a bit. Everyone has to start somewhere.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 12:28:39 [Permalink]
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| I for one applaud Bill scott's latest effort. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 05:10:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
As for the Hg content in CFLs, we should still take the steps to dispose of them properly. The package of most CFLs has info on where they should be taken, or a website to help find that info locally.
Yes, I would agree.
quote:
Countries who are expanding their power grids, like China and India, are using coal plants because they are the cheapest to build per watt of output.
Yes, I would agree.
quote:
But China is also investing in massive offshore wind turbine farms.
Any stats on what % of China's annual power consumption is filled by these turbines? What about 5 years from now?
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These countries have a demand for power, and we can blame ourselves (partially) for the type of power they are choosing.
The Chinese are not dumb, plus they seem to have plenty of their own coal. I think they would have figured it out eventually.
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If we had a more robust alternate energy research program running for the last 40 years, we may have already found more environmentally friendly and cost effective ways to generate power.
I can't disagree with that statement, all though "may" is a key word.
quote:
Think about the cost of the Iraq war. Think what our state of alternate energy generation might be if we had spent that much money (think we are up to $450Billion) in energy research over the last 40 years.
I think our government could be doing more in the search for alternative energy now and before the Iraq war ever began.
quote:
There is enough surface wind to meet the entire world's energy demands, but the infrastructure is more costly than coal power. High level winds using flown wind turbines could power us, and meet our increasing demands, for the next century. Same problem though, high initial cost and infrastructure lag.
It may be green as all get out, but if it is not practical it will never fly. That is the challenge here. We can make green energy but it is not affordable and we can make affordable energy but it is not green. The one who can create affordable energy that is green will win the prize. And again, with China pumping out one new coal fired power plant each week, I don't see them really counting on these wind turbines a whole lot. To me it would appear they are ramping up for a coal future. Think about it. One new plant every week to ten days. Thats around 48-52 new plants a year! With 544 alread planned to to go up!!!! China is investing in a coal future.
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Enough solar energy reaches the earth in an hour to power all human activity for a year (think I am remembering that one right). We still need to increase our ability to capture and use this power.
I would agree, but again, until it becomes practical it is nothing more then a cool science experiment.
quote:
Cellulosic ethanol production could drastically lower dependency on fossil fuels, bring net carbon emissions down, and keep us all in our high powered sports cars and SUVs for a long long time. If this technology can be advanced fast enough, it could potentially replace all fossil fuel burning. Any land that can grow a plant can be used, and there is the possibility of offshore seaweed farms as well.
Is it practical yet?
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(edited to add: My point, to this point, is to say that if we had been a little more green over the last 40 or so years, then maybe coal wouldn't be the cheapest power per watt, or we'd have had solutions to the problems of burning coal ironed out by now)
Again, I can't dispute this statement as long as "may" is included. It is a valid point.
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But these are the things our governments and corporations need to do. These things are out of the reach of individuals, for the most part.
I would agree.
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Of course, if you don't accept the evidence that MMGW is real, then you wouldn't be in any rush to encourage your government to fund implement these technologies.
Except for gas at $3 a gallon and air pollution and the Chinese building a new coal plant once a week with India on their coattails. That gets my attention without MMGW even in the discussion. That concerns me even if MMGW is disproved tomorrow.
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Do you know that the US government subsidizes the most profitable industry(oil) in the history of humanity?
So I have heard.
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Here is something you should be able to sink your conservative teeth into Bill. Why do oil companies get huge tax breaks and other subsidies when Exxon/Mobil has annual profits larger than the GNP of most of the nations on earth? Why are they allowed to get fat off the taxpayer dime when they already make so much profit?
Well number one I am glad you distinguish between a repub and a conservative. I usually take what is considered the conservative position on many issues, but not all. When I vote I usually vote for the more conservative candidate whether that be dem or repub.
quote:
Help me out here Bill, what is the conservative take on that one?
My personal opinion, as a conservative, is that I hate the big brass of these oil companies and the politicians who serve them. The picture of the blubber'ish CEO from Exxon who received a $400 million dollar "bonus" makes me sick to my stomach if I think about it to much. I hate feeling held hostage by gas and it's producers. The day a practical alternative is available I will drop my petrol habits like a stone. I am an avid bicyclist, so a car free world is already a dream of mine.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 04/16/2007 05:19:02 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 05:11:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Which one would you rather cut and paste into your browser? That's the power of TinyURL!
I give this to you, free of charge.
Sorry and thanks. Here is my first tiny
http://tinyurl.com/yux3rf
Hey, that works pretty good!
And I thank you for the consideration, and apologize for getting angry.
How do you hide the URL behind the text of your choice? I have not been able to that yet. Thanks. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 04/16/2007 05:12:56 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 06:18:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
How do you hide the URL behind the text of your choice? I have not been able to that yet. Thanks.
No problem..., although Doc can explaine it better than I.
Ok, in the tool bar, there's an icon that looks like a little globe. Select the word or phrase that you want to be your link, and click on the icon. You will get this:
[url[your word or phrase[/url[
In the first [url[ put in an equal sign and two quotation marks, thus:
[url=""[ word or phrase[/url[. Put your link between the quotation marks:
[url="incomprehensable_internet_linky@gibberish"[word or phrase[/url[
Please note that I have reversed the last parentheses in the code so that this won't try to link.
I like to do it this way. It's so neat and tidy, and with a little sick imagination, fun.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 06:33:02 [Permalink]
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By golly, we have a two-way dialogue going with Bill! Good for you, Bill.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 06:35:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
No problem..., although Doc can explaine it better than I.
I like to do it this way. It's so neat and tidy, and with a little sick imagination, fun.
Thanks, Filthy.
Link here |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/16/2007 : 06:46:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
No problem..., although Doc can explaine it better than I.
I like to do it this way. It's so neat and tidy, and with a little sick imagination, fun.
Thanks, Filthy.
Link here
Excellent! My good deed for the day is done and over with, and I can now return to my customary evil -- a relief, I can tell you.
Happy to help....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 06:55:58 [Permalink]
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As heard on MarketPlace on Friday:RYSSDAL: OK. So we go to China, and we say "Listen: we have a way that you can get clean energy to turn on that light bulb or to do whatever it is. But it's gonna cost you a little bit extra. But you know what, it's really important that we take care of global warming." They're gonna look at us and say, "Why should we pay extra? We're fine burning dirty coal and burning oil and developing our economy at 10 percent a year. And so long as the light's on, what do we care where it comes from?"
FRIEDMAN: That is what they'll say. But here's where it's an advantage for us: I'm gonna give you the example I give in the piece of GE Transportation. GE Transportation is based in Erie, Penn., the American rust belt. What do they sell? They sell choo-choo trains. Big, old-industry things. Guess what? Erie, Pennsylvania today has a trade surplus with China and Mexico. 'Cause GE transportation sells locomotives to China — which is, by the way, a railroad country which makes its own locomotives. Why do the Chinese buy GE locomotives? Because they are so energy efficient — because of some of the standards we've already imposed on our manufacturers — that even though the GE locomotive costs much more than the Chinese locomotive, the total cost of operating it for the railroad is less because it's so energy efficient.
RYSSDAL: So there's a lowest-common-denominator price that we have to meet in the Chinese market before anything's gonna happen.
FRIEDMAN: Yeah. Unless we get down to the China price, the price at which clean technology — whether it's clean coal, solar or wind — can scale in China, we really haven't solved anything at all. So yeah, come up with green power that's cheap, and everyone ought to use it.
Also, the above tale supports the notion that had we been pushing for green power over the last umpty-ump years (like we'd been pushing for more efficient locos), we might already have arrived. So, it seems to me, we need to push ourselves harder. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 07:02:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
and I can now return to my customary evil -- a relief, I can tell you.
And why do think that is? The seeming desire for men to do evil that is. We seem attracted to it like a junebug to a porch light. Human history has been littered with men in positions of great power, who have used this power for evil. But yet it is not even limited to men of power, even the common layman is drawn to it, as you yourself have said.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 07:27:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
So yeah, come up with green power that's cheap, and everyone ought to use it.
So, it seems to me, we need to push ourselves harder.
As someone who is still skeptical of MMGW, but still hates big oil and all that comes with it, I am down with the push for alternative energy. This is just my opinion but the Al Gore's of the world hinder this process more then they help. I am convinced we need alternative energy by $3/gallon gas while fat CEO's of big oil get $400 million dollar gifts at retirement. I am convinced by the Chinese building new coal plant after new coal plant. It is my belief that Al going around the planet pushing the MMGW in his private jet, along with John Travolta and the rest that crowd, is making this a divisive and political issue among those who really appear to be looking for a common goal. Clean air, clean water, and an alternative to middle east oil, as a social conservative that would be my push. And all you need to sell it to me is the $3 gas and the rate that coal power stations are popping up around the world and I am on board with you.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 04/16/2007 08:06:19 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 08:57:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
And why do think that is? The seeming desire for men to do evil that is. We seem attracted to it like a junebug to a porch light. Human history has been littered with men in positions of great power, who have used this power for evil. But yet it is not even limited to men of power, even the common layman is drawn to it, as you yourself have said.
Because evil, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, and by this time you should know better than to get me started on something like this.
What exactly is evil, and who makes that decision? Was Hitler evil? No doubt we all can agree on that one. Was Gandi evil? I have it on the authority of one of our local preachers that indeed he was. Am I evil for disbelieving in any sort of deity along with contributing nothing to the advancement of any belief system beyond derision? Sure, why not?
Is George W. Bush evil? To my beholding eye he certainly is, along with most of the rest of his wretched administration. Others disagree -- 30 & some-odd %, if what I've read is up to date, and I'll bet he'll never be made responsible for his deeds, and that too is evil.
Are the big oil conglomerates who are currently sucking our blood at the gas pumps evil? Betcherass! As the price of fuel rises, so does the cost of everything else including the staples necessary for our very existence.
Another view of the question: evil is cool. Too often, we puff ourselves up by demonstrating, or attempting to demonstrate, what a badass we are. This might be considered as ridiculous evil, and also dangerous evil because we might run into a real badass who can show us what true evil really is.
Then, of course, we have supernatural evil -- demons, devils, angels, and the like. They scare the worst of the believers into being at least civil (usually) in their dealings with the rest of us, but beyond that, only make for good stories. But unfortunately some of the believers believe too well, and that is how the history of mankind became filled with a sanguine evil that continues to this day -- I give you the Sunni/Shiia evilidiotcy currently going on in Iraq to ponder.
Evil is as evil does, my friend, and, like it or not, it makes the world go 'round.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Political hacks water down global warming report
